Season 3 – Episode 014
Welcome to A Job Done Well, the podcast for managers who want to improve their performance—and enjoy their jobs. Hosted by Jimmy Barber and James Lawther, this episode tackles hybrid working, a topic that’s causing headaches, heartburn, and heated debates in boardrooms and Slack channels everywhere.
The pandemic proved that remote work could work. But now, as companies scramble to bring people back into the office, many are doing so in the clumsiest way possible: mandating days without considering the why or the how. The result? Frustrated employees, plummeting morale, and—ironically—often worse performance.
In this episode, Jimmy and James break down what’s working, what’s not, and why. They explore Microsoft’s enlightened approach (trust, autonomy, and a focus on collaboration), Apple’s misfired mandate (which sparked open letters and internal rebellion), and Goldman Sachs’ old-school presenteeism (which drove talent straight into the arms of competitors). They also dive into the research: why autonomy matters more than location, how proximity accelerates learning, and why one-size-fits-all policies are about as effective as a chocolate teapot.
But this isn’t just a rant. Jimmy and James offer practical advice for managers—whether you’re designing the policy or stuck implementing someone else’s. Learn how to create an “office menu” (what to do in the office vs. remotely), lead by example, and keep your ways of working under review. Because the goal isn’t just to fill seats; it’s to boost performance, wellbeing, and—dare we say it—happiness at work.
So if you’re tired of corporate nonsense and want to make hybrid working actually work, tune in. And remember: treat your team like adults, not children.
[00:00:03] James: Hello, I’m James. Jimmy: Hi, I’m Jimmy, and welcome to A Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance—and enjoyment—at work.
[00:00:15] James: Hello, how are you? Happy New Year. Jimmy: James, how you doing? James: I’m doing very well, thank you. Ecstatic to be back after my Christmas break. Jimmy: I know. This is 2026. James: Yeah, 58 this year. There’s a thought for you. Oh no, you’re there already, aren’t you? Right. What are we talking about today then?
[00:00:34] Jimmy: Today, we’re talking about hybrid working. It’s a subject many leaders are talking about: How do we get people back into the office? But too often, that translates into just mandating a number of days, which risks alienating people and hurting performance. If you think it through holistically, you can optimise both wellbeing and productivity. But before that, what have you been up to?
[00:01:11] James: Well, the highlight of my Christmas was my Dukes of Hazzard impersonation. For some reason, the car door of my Volvo wouldn’t open. It’s okay if you’re 23 and driving a Dodge Charger, but when you’re 58 and it’s a Volvo, it’s not quite the same. Jimmy: That reel that Mylene Klass is doing. James: Have I seen that reel? I don’t even know what a reel is. Jimmy: Look it up, James. Basically, that’s what you should be trying to do when you get into your car. James: Yeah, well, I’m not entirely sure I can do that. Jimmy: I’m not entirely sure I’d want to see you trying to do that either.
[00:02:03] James: Right. How about you? What have you been up to? Jimmy: Happy New Year to all our viewers and listeners. It was a quiet one for me—a combination of illness and just wanting to rest at the end of the year. I enjoyed it, but I’m happy to get back to… well, I say work, but podcasting. It’s never really like work, is it? James: Much more fun. So, go on then—hybrid working. What do we mean by it, and why is it important?
[00:02:36] Jimmy: A lot of people did a bit of working from home before COVID, but it took an exponential leap when the pandemic forced us into it. James: I remember people saying, “Oh no, it’ll never work.” And then for two years, we were all doing it—and it worked perfectly well. Jimmy: Exactly. But it created a trend where everyone carried on hybrid working afterward, and not really going back into the office. Recently, we’ve seen a real move where employers are mandating people get back into the office. That can be for lots of reasons: performance concerns, control, real estate costs. But you’ve got this situation where employees have changed their lives as a result. Some have been working from home for five years, and now they’re being told they’ve got to get back into the office. That has a massive impact.
[00:03:45] James: There are stories like people who moved from London to the Highlands for a better quality of life, and now they’ve got to be back in the office in London. Or people who were recruited to work from home and are now being told they’ve got to be in an office somewhere. It’s a problem for a lot of people. Jimmy: And if you’re in your early twenties, you’ve probably never known anything different. This is how work has always been for you. So to suddenly be told you’ve got to get back into the office—it’s a massive disruption. What’s your perspective on hybrid work, James?
[00:04:25] James: I did it for a very long time before COVID. I was bouncing around the countryside, working from home a couple of days a week, and then traveling everywhere from Sunderland to Gatwick. For me, it worked really well. I enjoyed it. But it does have its downsides. Productivity can go down if you have too much homeworking—not because people are lazy, but because you lose connection and belonging. There’s a sweet spot, almost like the Goldilocks effect: too little homeworking, and people get fed up; too much, and they get bored and isolated.
[00:06:04] Jimmy: I agree. Before COVID, I worked at home one day a week, and I couldn’t imagine doing more. But then COVID came along, and suddenly I was doing five days a week at home. It opened up possibilities I didn’t realise existed. I found I’m much more productive at home for focused work, but I miss the social side—the relationships, the learning, the fun that happens outside of meetings. Too much homeworking leads to loneliness; too little, and you’re spending half your life commuting.
[00:07:35] James: It also depends on where you are in your career. When I was doing a lot of hybrid work, I was a senior manager. I knew what I was doing, and it was fine. But my daughter, who’s just started as a graduate trainee, is struggling. She’s only in the office two days a week, doesn’t know people, and doesn’t know who to talk to. It’s much easier to start your career in an office. Jimmy: That’s the challenge. The people designing these policies aren’t always thinking about the workforce as a whole—they’re thinking from their own perspective.
[00:08:35] James: What about the employer perspective? Jimmy: Employers have offices, real estate, and a desire for control. Some think, “We’ve always worked this way, so you should too.” Others assume that if performance isn’t great, it’s because people aren’t in the office. But it’s not that simple. There’s a generational perspective here—some people think working from home is bad and being in the office is good. But the answer is: it depends.
[00:10:15] Jimmy: Let’s talk about some examples. Microsoft does hybrid working well. They employ people on hybrid contracts by default. Managers have the discretion to design their team’s ways of working, and the office is seen as a space for collaboration and learning—not just productivity. It’s about trust and autonomy, not a blunt instrument like “four days a week.” James: That sounds enlightened.
[00:11:34] Jimmy: Then there’s Apple. They mandated three days in the office, believing it would help with collaboration. But they didn’t explain why, and they faced significant internal resistance. Employees wrote open letters, trust was damaged, and performance suffered. Even a great culture can struggle if the why isn’t clear. James: And if you’re in the office but half the team is on Teams calls, it’s pointless. You might as well be at home.
[00:13:48] Jimmy: The takeaway from Apple is that even an amazing culture can have difficulties if the explanation doesn’t land. Then there’s the ugly: Goldman Sachs. They pushed hard for a return to the office, with senior leaders disparaging remote work and reinforcing presenteeism. The result? Disconnection, lack of empathy, and competitors poaching staff by offering flexibility. Engagement dropped, and people left.
[00:15:45] James: I’ve got a couple more bad examples. One is a large bank in the city mandating people come into the office five days a week, even if they live in Birmingham and work in London. It feels like they’re trying to drive attrition. Another organisation closed offices left and right, just focused on cost savings without considering the social side. It’s nuanced—it depends on what the organisation is trying to achieve.
[00:17:05] Jimmy: Most organisations fall into the “mediocre or poor” bucket when it comes to hybrid working. It’s hard work, and you need to think about it. We’re always looking for simple solutions, but a simple solution like “four days in the office” isn’t the answer.
[00:18:07] James: So what’s the research? Jimmy: Different work needs different environments. Deep, focused work is often better done remotely, while learning, collaboration, and trust-building benefit from physical co-presence. Proximity accelerates learning—especially for early-career employees who miss out on spontaneous conversations and observations. Autonomy matters more than location. People resist being treated like children.
[00:20:42] James: There’s a study on desk policies: tidy desks, enriched environments, and empowered offices. The empowered office—where people could personalise their space—was the most productive. But when they stripped that away, productivity plummeted. People like autonomy. Forcing them doesn’t work.
[00:22:21] Jimmy: High-performing teams define and review their ways of working constantly. If you strip that away, you limit their potential.
[00:23:53] James: So, worst-case scenario: my organisation mandates four days in the office. It’s gone down like a cup of cold sick. As a manager, what can I do? Jimmy: First, stop debating the number of days. Instead, design how your team spends that time. Create an “office menu”—define what activities are done in the office vs. remotely. Be honest about trade-offs, like long commutes. Lead by example, and keep reviewing your approach.
[00:25:56] James: It’s about knowing the person. One manager insisted on Friday reviews at 5 PM, which clashed with my childcare. Another let me leave early to catch the train, knowing I’d work on the journey. Flexibility matters. Jimmy: Sometimes compromises can be found. Lead by example, and keep your ways of working under review.
[00:29:07] Jimmy: To summarise: COVID exponentially grew remote and hybrid working, but the reverse trend has been clumsy. If you’re designing the policy, think about your organisation’s purpose and use hybrid working as a tool. If you’re implementing someone else’s policy, focus on activities, not attendance. Treat people like adults, not children.
[00:30:51] Jimmy: If you’ve enjoyed this episode, get in touch with your questions. We’ll see you next week!
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