Why Most Workplace Communication Fails

[00:00:15]
Jimmy: Afternoon, James.
James: What are we talking about today then?

[00:00:18]
Jimmy: Well, today we have Amanda back as a special guest.
James: Ah, somebody’s gonna talk some sense then.

[00:00:25]
Jimmy: Definitely. She’s going to talk us through a model that can help when you’ve got to communicate stuff—when you’re delivering change in your team, training your team, all those things managers have to do every day. Amanda’s got a really neat model to help us with.

[00:00:48]
James: So go on then, why would anybody be interested in that?

[00:00:51]
Jimmy: Before we get into that, Amanda, do you wanna introduce yourself? You’ve been here many times, but some people may not have met you before.

[00:00:58]
Amanda: Hello. Thank you for having me back. Great to be a guest on the show once again. I’m a learning and development consultant. I work independently now, having spent 30 years in the corporate world as head of learning and development. Now I help businesses and individuals with their learning and people development. So it’s great to be here and share something I think will be useful to you and your audience.

[00:01:27]
James: That’s a really good question, though. Why would anyone be interested in this?

[00:01:30]
Amanda: Managers have a pretty tough job. Every day they’re out there leading people. But a huge part of that is communication—their efforts to put across ideas, either their own or representing organisational concepts. They might find themselves in a number of scenarios: straight communication by email or in team meetings, leading a change, or helping people understand how things work around here. But the most important part of communication is making sure the message lands—it’s understood, received by the audience, and the meaning they take from it is what you hoped. More significantly, it drives some kind of action. Otherwise, it’s just a nice-to-know communication, which has its place, but very often for managers, I’m telling you this because I need something to happen.

[00:02:27]
James: I think, to be honest with you, absolutely. The number of corporate communication calls I’ve been on where they clearly haven’t thought that through at all is innumerable.

[00:02:40]
Jimmy: One of the challenges, Amanda, is in all those scenarios, whenever we’re communicating, we tend to get caught up in the content: Does my slide look nice? Is my email phrased right? We’re not thinking about some of the things you’re gonna talk about. We’re just worrying about pretty slides, and I think that doesn’t change behaviours, whereas what you’re talking about can help.

[00:03:07]
Amanda: Yes, absolutely. Hours and hours spent crafting PowerPoint presentations, which have their place. But this model helps you think about a number of dimensions in your communication, not just whether it’s going to be a PowerPoint exercise.

[00:03:37]
Jimmy: Should we take a look?

[00:03:38]
Amanda: The model—full credit to Bernice McCarthy, an expert in education—isn’t just for training. It’s a complete model for communications in whatever form: a PowerPoint, an email, a team meeting. It has four key stages. We should provide a link to the model at the end for those who want to learn more. But essentially—

[00:04:30]
Jimmy: Sorry, Amanda, into the model per se—rather than just talk through it, which could be a tad dry, we’re going to bring it to life with a live case study.

[00:04:46]
James: Guinea pig.

[00:04:48]
Jimmy: Yes. In fairness, he’s not only a live guinea pig, but he’s wearing a very fetching shirt.

[00:04:58]
James: Do you like that? That’s my new shirt. My wife bought it from a charity shop last weekend. Kid you not, 12 quid. Can’t go wrong, can you? When you’re a retiree like me, you need to watch the pennies.

[00:05:13]
Jimmy: Thrifty.
James: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:16]
Amanda: What’s the scenario?

[00:05:17]
James: I’m halfway through writing a second book. If there was ever an exercise in communication, writing a book is. Given that I’m halfway through, I thought now might be the time to sense-check what I’m doing and see if there’s any rhyme or reason to it. It’d be a bit annoying if we got all the way to the end and you pointed out all the things I should have done.

[00:05:40]
Amanda: Amazing. Writing a new book—congratulations. So, as you’re thinking about writing your book, I’m going to suggest you think about the 4MAT model for communication. It has a number of stages. The first one will be music to your ears. You’ve both touched on this in many of your podcasts: creating meaning for your readers. The big question here is why. It’s about connecting your audience to the material, having them attend, having them be present to the information you’re putting across. Let’s experiment with that. Tell us about the why for the book you’re creating.

[00:06:36]
James: Not why am I writing it, but why would anybody read it?

[00:06:40]
Amanda: Exactly. As you’re formulating this communication vehicle in the form of a book, you’re thinking about the stages that help people access the material you’re trying to communicate.

[00:06:55]
James: So the why. The book is about—well, let me go back a bit. Have you ever read In Search of Excellence? It’s a book from the 1980s, given to me when I was a bright young thing. I found it on my bookshelf 30 years later and thought, Well, wouldn’t it be interesting to see if there’s commonality in companies that have really screwed it up? The thing with high-performing companies is that sooner or later, the wheel drops off, so people can discount what they’ve learned. But if it’s a screw-up, it’s a screw-up. There’s no avoiding it. So I thought, Well, it’ll stand the test of time. Also, I’m a bit of a half-empty sort of guy—I like things that have gone tits up. That was the why am I writing it. But why would anybody want to read that? Well, when you start to look into it, I’ve got eight or nine corporate disasters. The commonality between them is really quite uncanny. You see repeating patterns over and over again. And I’ve seen some of these patterns in places that have actually worked all right—they didn’t go belly up, but you see these patterns reappearing. So the why would I want to read that is: What can I learn from it? Why did these organisations go belly up? Is there anything in it for me to avoid that happening to me?

[00:08:43]
Amanda: Very good. Do you want to read this book, Jimmy?

[00:08:46]
Jimmy: I’m interested. You can learn from the stuff going wrong, so maybe you don’t make those mistakes in your team or organisation. So yeah, I’m there with that.

[00:08:56]
Amanda: Sounds really cool.

[00:08:58]
Jimmy: But Amanda, is there anything that James could add to his why to strengthen it even further?

[00:09:03]
Amanda: James, have you done any market research about what your audience or potential audience wants to hear?

[00:09:15]
James: Well, the feedback I got on the first book was that people liked the stories I’d used to explain points—where things had gone wrong. From a personal perspective, having worked for six or seven large organisations, I just thought, Well, I’ve seen the same patterns here. These are very different organisations, so I was quite curious myself. And I have to admit, that’s where it came from. But people do like a good disaster. A good disaster movie always goes well. This’ll be the Titanic of books.

[00:09:49]
Jimmy: A great point. James has got a strong why, and you’d be compelled to read it, but to make it stronger, understand what the audience might want or what they might be thinking about this.

[00:10:00]
Amanda: And in this communication, you’re creating from that point of view. You’re helping them connect to the concept, the ideas, the content, from their point of view in a way that’s useful and meaningful to them.

[00:10:15]
James: Yeah, and people have to be able to act on it. One of the other bits of feedback from the previous book was that each chapter had a summary: Well, what can you do with this? Repeating that structure would fit within your model.

[00:10:31]
Amanda: The beauty of the model is it’s about seeking to connect both sides of the brain—the desire for structure, which you’ll build into your book, and the emotional shifts. Can they see the patterns? Can they create metaphors for how they work and therefore a cautionary tale, something to be avoided?

[00:11:23]
James: That relates to something we did in a podcast last week about high performers. I recounted the story of the Super Chicken. Someone came back and said, Well, that’s exactly like every organisation I’ve ever worked in.

[00:11:45]
Amanda: So relevance to people’s own experience is really important from a why perspective.

[00:11:56]
Jimmy: What’s the next step in the model then, Amanda?

[00:11:58]
Amanda: The next key question is what. Now I understand why—we’ve created some meaning. The question becomes: What is it about? What’s the concept? You’re giving people information, engaging the part of the brain that receives facts, ideas, and concepts, but also asking them to imagine what might be possible. How might you go about solving this problem?

[00:12:35]
James: So the what—as I said, it’s a number of organisations where there’s been a disaster. If I had to choose two or three: the Chernobyl disaster, the Post Office scandal, the blood transfusion disaster, Bhopal, the sex scandal in the Roman Catholic Church in the States. It’s a wide variety of organisations. But the what is the things that you see—the repeating patterns.

[00:13:02]
Amanda: Nice.

[00:13:04]
Jimmy: So, Amanda, just on that: James has described the what, but he’s talking about disasters that are on the surface very interesting but not really relatable to people’s everyday jobs. But he’s creating the bridge from the disaster to how it relates to normal, everyday organisations and everyday work and lives. Is that the what for people?

[00:13:36]
Amanda: Exactly. The story becomes the metaphorical access point. The what becomes the concept or the idea you’re trying to put across. What was the story in service of? What were you trying to illustrate in terms of concept?

[00:14:57]
James: The key point is that some of these organisations went dreadfully wrong, but the reasons behind that are common to a huge number of other organisations. These organisations just got unlucky—the stars lined up. But that doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen to an organisation near you.

[00:15:18]
Amanda: So what do you want them to know as a consequence of the pattern you bring to life through the story? The bottom line is: What am I supposed to know now?

[00:15:30]
James: Yeah.

[00:15:31]
Amanda: Seems like you might be following this model intuitively, James.

[00:15:36]
James: It’ll fall apart shortly, but let’s keep going.

[00:15:39]
Jimmy: Get on to the next bit.

[00:15:40]
James: Yeah, go on then.

[00:15:41]
Amanda: Now, certainly from a training perspective, but actually in all communication scenarios, the key question becomes how. For example, let’s imagine you’ve launched a change in your organisation: Things are going to be done differently from X date. Very often, that change results in downsizing. The question you hear is: Well, how? How will we get all the work done with fewer people? Or How will these new policies and practices actually work? You’re moving into the skills area. What will we need to do? Is there new training or a new way of behaving? As you’re thinking about your communication, you’ve covered the why—we’ve explained why it’s important. We’re into the what—what’s happening here? What ideas are we putting across? And now you’re exploring: How might this new way of thinking or doing things actually be put into place? What skills will be needed? What practices will we need to change?

[00:17:03]
James: This is interesting, because I haven’t started on this bit yet. There’s a question: Should this be part of the book or not? I think your answer’s gonna be yes. You could stop and say, Well, you see these repeating patterns, and that’s it. People will recognise that and see it in their own organisations. But what you’re saying is it’s worth spelling out the counter: If you want to avoid that, this is what you should be doing.

[00:17:28]
Amanda: Or providing provocation for people to do some work on the how themselves. But certainly not missing the step of translating this idea into something—a new practice, a new way of doing things.

[00:17:57]
Jimmy: When you were talking about the how, I was thinking about what James had said earlier: how he structures the book. He’s got stories, and at the end of each story, he gives a summary. Is that part of the how as well?

[00:18:14]
Amanda: For James, it is. How am I thinking about creating this book? The structure of the book will help the reader digest the ideas.

[00:18:44]
Jimmy: Yeah. James said previously that his last book was structured in a certain way, and the feedback was that it worked really well. So he’s thinking about how he communicates the message—story, summary—that’s the structure, and that helps the reader learn more.

[00:19:07]
Amanda: The structure of his creation is designed to make it accessible to the reader.

[00:19:17]
James: But from a communications perspective, it’s important to give the how. What should they do differently? How should they avoid this situation?

[00:19:26]
Amanda: Or at least pay attention to that. As the creator, is there a message in here that goes from the meaning, the why, into the what we’re doing, and then how I’m expecting you to do this?

[00:19:50]
James: There have been times when I’ve been in meetings and thought, Well, how am I supposed to respond to that? Therefore, they’ve totally missed the point in that communication exercise.

[00:20:02]
Amanda: This is about bringing awareness to the creator. It’s good practice for you as the manager to think about how you take your audience on the journey to access the information in a way that’s consumable by them. Sometimes we create something that’s trainer-centric or facilitator-centric: I wrote it for myself; it’s everything I know, and I’m just passing it over to you. As opposed to: What is it like if I’m a learner here? How can I consume the information you’re trying to impart?

[00:20:50]
Jimmy: I think that’s where certain books and communications fall down—they don’t lead you to the behaviour they want to see. They just give you the information rather than how you can apply it or think differently.

[00:21:02]
Amanda: As a development specialist, I’m concerned that you might go through a training experience that was just a lovely day out unless, at the end, you’re starting to think about how you might do things differently.

[00:21:59]
James: Can you think of something you’ve seen where that’s been done really well?

[00:22:04]
Amanda: Let’s talk about innovation and creativity. I’ve seen brilliant training programs where meaning and purpose are established by the organisation for its survival. The what—some teaching around what this means in practice. The how—go and do exercises where you’re putting those skills into practice. You’re creating, you’re innovating in your space. What were your case studies as a consequence?

[00:22:35]
James: Training doesn’t matter—it could just be communication. It could be an email. It’s the effort you put into it. But if you’re not clear about what the skills are that people are supposed to use as a result, if you think all communication is trying to change behaviour, then how do you want my behaviour to change?

[00:23:00]
Amanda: Exactly. How am I gonna do this?

[00:23:02]
James: Just paying a bill, frankly.

[00:23:05]
Jimmy: The problem is, if you think about the model, you’ve established the why—now I’m interested and paying attention. You’ve told me what you’re gonna tell me about. If you don’t tell me how, then I’m left high and dry. You’ve created a sense of urgency, so I want you to do this, and now you’ve left me.

[00:23:22]
James: It doesn’t matter if it’s a bill or a book or a training course. If it’s a bill, they want you to pay, and they’re very clear about the how. There’s usually a big red box at the bottom with four options for how you can pay.

[00:23:38]
Amanda: Give you the options.

[00:23:48]
Amanda: Then we move into the key question: What if? What if I’m going to do this in my role? What if I applied these concepts and skills to my current job or life? Essentially, I’m gonna perform something now. I’m gonna do something and move to action. This often requires adaptation. Let’s say in your book you’re giving examples outside of my industry, but they bring to life what can go terribly wrong, and you’re teaching us how to avoid that. The question is: How am I going to apply this, or if I apply this in my workplace, what would that look like? How do I refine it to make it meaningful in my context?

[00:24:44]
James: The questions overlap. You start with why—what’s the meaning? Then what are the concepts? Then how are the skills? But the what if is the application. So you use this—what would it look like? Yeah.

[00:25:07]
Amanda: What would it be like?

[00:25:19]
James: How would that play out in a book? I’m thinking of classics like The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. How does he do it?

[00:25:28]
Amanda: In that training, we had reinforcing mechanisms. One was a buddy system: after training, you meet up regularly and take one of the concepts—start with the end in mind—and say, How have I been applying that in my work or home life? The reinforcement was: What did you do? How did you do it? How did it go? What did you learn?

[00:26:02]
Jimmy: In this context, Amanda, how does this apply to James and his book?

[00:26:07]
Amanda: James, in your book, what are you going to suggest people think about doing next? What would you encourage them to take from the book and translate into their world?

[00:26:21]
James: It’s about your behaviours as a manager and the things you could choose to do differently.

[00:26:28]
Amanda: You might give them prompts or nudges: What to do next, how might you think about this. You might encourage them, as you do with the podcast, to give feedback: How have you applied these concepts? How did you experience them? What did you do as a consequence?

[00:26:46]
James: It’s worth having a chapter at the end called So What, which forces out: If you were going to do this, what are you going to do?

[00:26:58]
Jimmy: For me, this translates into one of the big mistakes people make around delivering change: they don’t think about the sustainability of that change. It’s push it out there, tell somebody the information, job’s a good ’un. They don’t think about how it’s going to be sustained over time. To see the benefit, you’ve got to design in the methods, the accountability, the space—the things that make it real every day.

[00:27:34]
Amanda: The reinforcement mechanisms. I don’t mean that in a controlling way, but in terms of check-ins. If this matters enough for you to spend time creating a communication, presumably you have an expectation of action.

[00:27:52]
James: That’s interesting. From our discussion, I’ve got the why and the what. The how a bit, the what if probably not at all. But am I alone in that? Yeah, maybe those are the sins of communication.

[00:28:10]
Jimmy: Therein lies the problem, James. That’s how most people will relate to this. They’ll look at it and say, Yeah, I’m really clear on the why. I’m really clear on the what. And then it starts to peter away. That’s why so much communication doesn’t fully land. That’s the beauty of this model—it forces you to do the third and fourth parts.

[00:28:36]
Amanda: It’s about helping your learner, your reader, the receiver of your communication, engage with it. It’s a discipline for all of us to work through each stage and answer the questions. If you can’t, maybe something’s missing. It might push you to think more carefully about your intention or what you’re trying to communicate.

[00:29:11]
James: Very good.

[00:29:12]
Jimmy: So, James, now your book’s gonna be even better than it was.

[00:29:16]
James: It’ll be. But if anybody’s interested and wants to send me 20 quid as a down payment for a hardback, limited edition—

[00:29:24]
Jimmy: Let’s not go too far. Let’s just start by reading Managed by Morons, James’ best-selling first book, and then you’ll want to read his second book after that.

[00:29:40]
Amanda: For sure.

[00:29:41]
Jimmy: That’s how you do it.

[00:29:48]
James: Sorry, self-promotion’s not my strong point.

[00:29:51]
Jimmy: Well, thanks, Amanda. I think that was really useful. We applied it to James’ book, but you can see how, in all sorts of scenarios, managers will be able to use your model every day. So thank you for joining us and sharing that.

[00:30:06]
Amanda: A pleasure. Thank you.

[00:30:08]
James: Here’s to the next 30 years.

[00:30:10]
Jimmy: Thanks, everyone.

[00:30:11]
James: See you later.

[00:30:12]
Speaker: We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast, from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing: getting the job done well.

[00:30:20]
Speaker: Easier said than done. So if you’ve got unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck, if your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiralling, and that big IT transformation project just keeps failing to deliver, we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team’s performance, or your organisation’s, get in touch at jimmy@ajobdonewell.com or james@ajobdonewell.com.