Everything at Work Is Really About Status

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[00:00:15]
Jimmy: Afternoon, James. How you doing?
James: Oh, I’m doing very well, thank you very much. I’m very excited today—we’ve got a guest.

Jimmy: Are you excited?

James: Well, I’ve got a guest who I thought would do us the power of good. Today we have Ceri Newton-Sargunar with us. Ceri introduces herself as a strategic behavioural advisor, an interaction specialist—

Jimmy: We need a bit of that, don’t we?

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[00:00:44]
Jimmy: When I met Ceri, she said she’d talk to us about the thing right underneath your nose that you’ve never really paid enough attention to, but it underpins everything from conflict to disengagement to burnout.

James: Before I say anything else stupid, Ceri, would you like to introduce yourself?

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[00:01:06]
Ceri: Hello, my name’s Ceri Newton-Sargunar, and I’m really happy to be here. I’m a neuroscientist, a bit of a chaos theorist, and by background, I’m trained in law, English language, and psychology. The common thread through everything I do is a love of language and understanding how words direct everything we do—how they change how we feel, perceive, and act.

I work with governments, big and small organisations, and what fascinates me is how status drives all human behaviour.

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[00:01:38]
James: And it’s interesting—once you say it, it’s blindingly obvious. It’s a biological need, isn’t it? Like the pecking order in a flock of chickens.

Ceri: Exactly. I noticed it while working with leaders in hierarchical organisations, startups, charities, and flat structures. They all faced the same challenges. I showed them a clip from a David Attenborough documentary about a mother bird and her chicks. One chick pecks the other to death to secure the mother’s resources. Everybody is trying to avoid being the second shoebill chick.

When you see behaviour in the boardroom, in emails, on TV—suddenly, a lot of what we’re trying to change starts to make sense.

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[00:02:32]
James: You’ve seen this in flat organisations and hierarchical ones. Are some better than others, or is it so ingrained that structure doesn’t matter?

Ceri: It’s hugely ingrained. Unless you’re aware of it, it impacts you without you knowing. I spoke to a leader in a flat organisation who said, “My mind is blown. I can see how all our problems come back to this one thing. I thought we were doing everything right.”

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[00:03:16]
Jimmy: Our podcast aims to help middle managers—from first-line to just below exec level. How does status impact them?

Ceri: Let’s take a common scenario: someone promoted from the team to lead it. Suddenly, they feel ostracised. They lose their sense of self. They used to join the pub complaints about the boss—now they are the boss. Their status has changed, and they struggle to lead, even if the team respects them.

Another example: a technical expert promoted to lead people. Their status came from knowing answers. Now, they’re expected to guide without answers. They flounder, shift blame, or deny problems. It’s not incompetence—it’s the system promoting them for the wrong reasons.

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[00:04:28]
James: So status isn’t just about job levels. It’s how you see yourself and how others see you.

Ceri: It’s a constant tussle. If I don’t feel good about myself, I might pick at others’ faults to feel better. Or I might evade responsibility—saying everything’s fine when it’s not—to avoid being judged as lacking.

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[00:05:03]
Jimmy: So it’s an instinctive feeling. As a middle manager, I’ve got peers, a team below me, and bosses above me. All those groups are driven by status—how I see others and myself.

Ceri: And how they see me. I don’t want peers I respect to think poorly of me. If I don’t care about your opinion, I couldn’t care less what you think. But if I do care, your judgment matters deeply.

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[00:05:50]
James: Are there different types of status?

Ceri: Yes. Research shows three drivers:

1. Success: The need to be seen as successful.
2. Power/Control: The need for autonomy and control.
3. Virtue: The need to be a good person.

These drivers clash. Someone motivated by virtue might not understand a colleague driven by success. The need for control isn’t inherently bad—it’s about predicting the future. But when drivers collide, conflict arises.

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[00:07:12]
James: So if I own a Porsche, for some it’s a status symbol of success. For others, it’s a waste of money. Without knowing what drives someone, it’s easy to misunderstand them.

Ceri: Absolutely. It’s easy to step on toes, create misalignment, and upset people.

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[00:07:44]
Jimmy: It’s fascinating how hard it is to understand others’ status drivers. I recall a colleague who always spun a positive story. They’d never admit a problem. It was infuriating—until you realise their deep drive for the status of success.

Ceri: Neuroscience shows that the threat of being seen as unsuccessful lights up the same brain regions as physical pain. It hurts to admit failure. That’s why people cling to the veneer of success.

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[00:08:41]
Jimmy: So status feels intense to the individual, and it’s hard to understand others’ perspectives. That’s a perfect storm.

Ceri: It is. But the first step is awareness. Understand what drives you. Then, recognise that others’ drivers are just as strong. That’s where empathy starts.

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[00:09:28]
James: You mentioned dysfunctional behaviours—micromanaging, ignoring reality. What else do you see?

Ceri: Groupthink. People go along with the crowd to elevate their status, even if it’s the wrong choice. The Challenger disaster is a classic example. Engineers knew about the O-ring issues, but higher-ups said, “We can’t look bad.” Whistleblowers risk their status to speak up, but they’re often cast as negative.

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[00:10:23]
Jimmy: So psychological safety is intrinsically linked to status.

Ceri: 100%. Psychological safety means feeling safe from shame, embarrassment, or humiliation. If I share an idea, I won’t be laughed at or cast out. If I disagree, I won’t be piled on. It’s about inclusion—ensuring no one feels like the second shoebill chick.

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[00:11:07]
Jimmy: This is all under our noses, but we overlook it. Now we’re talking about it, it’s blindingly important. What can we do about it?

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[00:11:16]
Ceri: First, explore your own status drivers. Think about the last time you felt injured or dismissed. What hurt you? That’s a clue to your driver.

Be kind to yourself. Don’t be embarrassed by your motivations. Examine whether you’re using them for good or unintentionally causing harm.

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[00:12:05]
James: So understand yourself, then have the conversation. What else?

Ceri: It takes courage. Try this exercise with your team: draw the “monster” that erupts when you don’t get what you want. I draw two—one jagged and angry when I’m not listened to, and one small and withdrawn when I feel stupid. It’s quick, revealing, and helps teams recognise each other’s triggers.

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[00:13:20]
James: Is it legitimate to play to someone’s ego to get them off their high horse?

Ceri: Soothing an ego isn’t harmful if it leads to better decisions. But don’t be a yes-person. Frame feedback carefully: “I respect your idea, but here’s the risk. Let’s find a way to achieve your goal without harm.”

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[00:14:16]
Jimmy: We’ve talked about giving egos a way to retreat. People need to save face when backing down.

Ceri: Exactly. Even in life-or-death situations, people struggle to back down if it damages their status.

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[00:14:44]
Jimmy: Conscious of time, Ceri, and we could talk about this literally all day. But where can people find out more about this?

Ceri: There’s a whole load of research out there for the academically minded. For the less academically minded, there are some really great articles I’m happy to share. Of course, there are other podcasts—

Jimmy: We’re okay. We’re okay posting on the podcast. There are millions out there, and a lot better than this as well.

James: We apparently were the 64th or something like that, best business podcast.

Jimmy: I thought it was 83rd.

James: Well, I don’t know, but we came to the conclusion there are a lot of better places to listen than this, but there’s—

Jimmy: Yeah.

James: Dribble out there, so we’re very happy to point people in that direction. If you leave us some links, we’ll put all of that on the podcast website, and then people can help themselves.

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[00:15:59]
James: Let me try and summarise to see whether or not I was paying attention. So the first thing I think is to be aware of the issue. So yeah, how important status is. The second thing is to be self-aware. So what is driving you? And the third thing really is to just go and try and address the situation. Then I think ultimately it just comes down to, it’s about being intentional about it and doing something. Is that fair, or is there something you’d like to add?

Ceri: I would say being intentional but also being courageous, so being willing to lower your status in order to help people have what is always going to be quite a difficult conversation. Anybody beginning this conversation is going to be coming into that conversation having listened to this podcast or maybe gone and done some reading. Whereas the people that they’re trying to have that conversation with are having it completely cold. So by making it easier for them, by being courageous, by being willing to lower your status in order to help them to be willing to talk about theirs.

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[00:17:00]
Jimmy: One of the bits that I took away, I really like the point about the intensity and importance it has to an individual, but the different types of status. So you talked about the status of success, the status of control and power, and the status of virtue. And how, without any real thought, you’re not necessarily going to always understand other people’s points of view. So back to your initial promise of this is something that’s been under your nose, that you when you get into it, think, ah, this is incredibly powerful. And I know we’ve only scratched the surface today, but it was a wonderful conversation.

Ceri: Yeah, thanks. It was.

James: No, thank you very much. Very interesting.

Jimmy: Yeah. Thank you very much, Ceri.

James: Speak to you later.

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[00:17:50]
James: We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast,

Jimmy: from purpose to corporate jargon,

James: but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well.

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[00:18:00]
Jimmy: Easier said than done. So if you’ve got unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck,

James: if your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiralling, and that big IT transformation project that you’ve been promised just keeps failing to deliver,

Jimmy: we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team’s performance, or your organisation’s, get in touch at jimmy@ajobdonewell.com or james@ajobdonewell.com.

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[00:18:23]
Jimmy: So the CEO sent out another email about “leveraging our core competencies.” Translation: “We have no idea what we’re doing.”

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[00:18:30]
Ceri: And now we’ve got to pretend we understand it. Classic corporate bingo—tick off the buzzwords, avoid actual work.

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[00:18:45]
James: So, Ceri, you mentioned earlier that status is a biological need. Can you expand on that a bit more?

Ceri: Absolutely. If you look at the animal kingdom, status is about survival. The alpha male or female gets the best resources, the best mates, the best protection. In humans, it’s not that different. Our brains are wired to seek status because, historically, it meant safety and success. Even today, when we feel our status is threatened, our brain reacts as if we’re in physical danger. That’s why people get so defensive or aggressive when their status is challenged.

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[00:19:30]
Jimmy: That’s fascinating. So, in a way, we’re hardwired to care about status, whether we like it or not.

Ceri: Exactly. And that’s why it’s so pervasive in the workplace. It’s not just about ego—it’s about our brain’s need for security and recognition.

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[00:19:50]
James: So, if status is so ingrained, how do we manage it in a way that doesn’t lead to all these negative behaviours?

Ceri: The first step is recognition. Once you understand that status is driving a lot of the behaviour around you, you can start to address it. For example, if you notice someone is always trying to one-up others in meetings, it might be because they feel their status is threatened. Instead of getting frustrated, you can address the root cause.

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[00:20:25]
Jimmy: That makes sense. So, it’s about understanding the underlying motivations and addressing them, rather than just reacting to the behaviours.

Ceri: Yes. And it’s also about creating an environment where people feel secure in their status. If everyone feels valued and respected, they’re less likely to engage in status-seeking behaviours that harm the team.

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[00:21:00]
James: That’s a great point. So, how do we create that kind of environment?

Ceri: It starts with leadership. Leaders need to model the behaviours they want to see. They need to recognise and reward collaboration and teamwork, rather than just individual achievement. They also need to be open about their own vulnerabilities and status drivers. When leaders show that it’s okay to be human, it gives everyone else permission to do the same.

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[00:21:45]
Jimmy: That’s easier said than done, though. A lot of leaders are under pressure to appear strong and infallible.

Ceri: True. But the best leaders are the ones who can admit their weaknesses and ask for help. That’s where real strength lies.

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[00:22:10]
James: So, Ceri, let’s talk about some practical steps. What can our listeners do tomorrow to start addressing status issues in their teams?

Ceri: Start small. Next time you’re in a meeting, pay attention to the dynamics. Who’s speaking the most? Who’s being interrupted? Who’s not speaking at all? Then, think about why that might be. Are people jockeying for status? Are some people feeling threatened?

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[00:22:45]
Jimmy: And what can they do about it?

Ceri: If you’re the leader, make sure everyone has a chance to speak. If you’re not, try to create space for others to contribute. And if you notice someone is being left out, speak up. Say, “I’d like to hear what [name] thinks about this.”

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[00:23:15]
James: That’s a simple but powerful step. What else?

Ceri: Another thing you can do is to recognise and acknowledge the contributions of others. A simple “thank you” or “great point” can go a long way in making people feel valued and respected.

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[00:23:40]
Jimmy: And what about when there’s a clear status imbalance, like between a manager and their team?

Ceri: In those cases, the manager needs to be especially mindful of their behaviour. They need to create a safe space for their team to speak up and share their ideas. And they need to be open to feedback and willing to admit when they’re wrong.

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[00:24:10]
James: That’s a lot to ask of managers, especially in high-pressure environments.

Ceri: It is. But the payoff is huge. Teams that feel psychologically safe are more innovative, more productive, and more engaged. And that’s good for everyone.

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[00:24:40]
Jimmy: Alright, let’s take a quick break. We’ll be back with more from Ceri Newton-Sargunar in just a moment.

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[00:25:00]
James: Welcome back to A Job Done Well. We’re here with Ceri Newton-Sargunar, talking about the role of status in the workplace.

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[00:25:15]
Jimmy: Ceri, before the break, we were talking about how managers can create a safe space for their teams. Can you give us an example of what that looks like in practice?

Ceri: Sure. Let’s say you’re in a team meeting, and someone suggests an idea that you don’t agree with. Instead of shooting it down, you could say, “That’s an interesting point. Can you tell us more about why you think that would work?” This shows that you value their input, even if you don’t agree with it.

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[00:25:50]
James: And what if the idea really isn’t a good one?

Ceri: Then you can say, “I see where you’re coming from, but I’m concerned about [specific issue]. What do you think about that?” This way, you’re not dismissing their idea outright. You’re engaging with it and giving them a chance to address your concerns.

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[00:26:20]
Jimmy: That’s a great approach. It’s all about making people feel heard and valued, even when you don’t agree with them.

Ceri: Exactly. And it’s not just about what you say—it’s about how you say it. Tone and body language matter just as much as the words you use.

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[00:26:50]
James: So, Ceri, we’ve talked a lot about the negative aspects of status. Are there any positive aspects?

Ceri: Absolutely. Status can be a powerful motivator. It can drive people to work hard, to innovate, to lead. The key is to channel it in a positive way. Instead of seeking status for its own sake, we should seek it as a way to contribute more, to make a bigger impact, to help others.

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[00:27:25]
Jimmy: That’s a great point. So, it’s not about eliminating status—it’s about managing it in a way that benefits everyone.

Ceri: Exactly. Status is a part of who we are. It’s about how we use it that matters.

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[00:27:50]
James: Alright, let’s talk about some of the darker sides of status. What happens when status seeking goes wrong?

Ceri: When status seeking goes wrong, it can lead to all sorts of negative behaviours—bullying, manipulation, sabotage. It can create a toxic work environment where people are more focused on getting ahead than on doing good work.

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[00:28:20]
Jimmy: And how do we address that?

Ceri: First, you need to recognise it. If you see someone engaging in negative status-seeking behaviours, address it directly but privately. Say, “I’ve noticed that you’ve been [specific behaviour]. I’m concerned about how it’s affecting the team. Can we talk about it?”

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[00:28:50]
James: And what if they deny it or get defensive?

Ceri: Then you need to be firm but fair. Say, “I’m not here to judge you. I’m here to help. But we need to address this behaviour because it’s not okay.” And if they continue to deny it or refuse to change, you may need to escalate the issue.

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[00:29:20]
Jimmy: That’s tough but necessary. Alright, let’s move on to some of the questions from our listeners.

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[00:29:35]
James: Our first question is from Sarah. She says, “I’m a middle manager, and I feel like I’m constantly caught between my team and my boss. How can I manage my status in this situation?”

Ceri: That’s a common challenge for middle managers. The key is to be clear about your role and your values. You’re not just a messenger between your team and your boss—you’re a leader in your own right. So, make sure you’re advocating for your team’s needs and concerns, while also meeting your boss’s expectations.

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[00:30:10]
Jimmy: And how do I do that without feeling like I’m betraying one or the other?

Ceri: It’s about being transparent. If your boss asks you to do something that you think will be harmful to your team, speak up. Say, “I understand why you want this, but I’m concerned about how it will affect my team. Can we talk about alternatives?” And if your team has concerns, bring them to your boss. Say, “My team has some concerns about this. Can we address them?”

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[00:30:45]
James: That’s great advice. Our next question is from Tom. He says, “I’m a new manager, and I’m struggling with the transition from being a team member to being the boss. How can I establish my authority without coming across as a jerk?”

Ceri: That’s a tough transition. The key is to lead with empathy. Remember what it was like to be in their shoes. And don’t try to assert your authority by being harsh or distant. Instead, show that you’re there to support them and help them succeed.

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[00:31:20]
Jimmy: And how do I do that?

Ceri: Start by having one-on-one conversations with each of your team members. Ask them about their goals, their challenges, their ideas. Show that you value their input and that you’re there to help them. And when you need to make tough decisions, explain your reasoning. People are more likely to respect and follow a leader who they understand and who they feel understands them.

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[00:32:00]
James: That’s a great approach. It’s all about building trust and respect.

Ceri: Exactly. And remember, you don’t have to have all the answers. It’s okay to say, “I don’t know, but I’ll find out.” That shows humility and a willingness to learn, which are both great leadership qualities.

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[00:32:30]
Jimmy: Alright, our last question is from Lisa. She says, “I work in a very competitive environment, and it’s starting to feel toxic. How can I protect my own well-being while still succeeding?”

Ceri: That’s a tough situation. The first thing is to set boundaries. You don’t have to engage in the toxic behaviours to succeed. Focus on your own goals and values, and don’t let others drag you down. And if the environment is truly toxic, it might be time to look for a new job. No job is worth your mental health.

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[00:33:10]
James: That’s a powerful message. And it’s a good reminder that we all have the power to choose where we work and how we engage with our work environments.

Ceri: Absolutely. And remember, you’re not alone. There are always people who can support you, whether it’s friends, family, mentors, or professional networks.

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[00:33:40]
Jimmy: Alright, we’re coming up on time. Ceri, do you have any final thoughts or advice for our listeners?

Ceri: Just remember that status is a part of who we are, but it doesn’t have to define us. We can choose how we engage with it and how we let it influence our behaviours. And always remember that true status comes from who we are and how we treat others, not from our job titles or our achievements.

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[00:34:15]
James: That’s a great note to end on. Ceri, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been a fascinating conversation.

Jimmy: Yeah, thank you, Ceri. We really appreciate your time and insights.

Ceri: Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

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[00:34:40]
James: And thank you to all our listeners for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues.

Jimmy: And if you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover in future episodes, get in touch at jimmy@ajobdonewell.com or james@ajobdonewell.com.

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[00:35:00]
James: Don’t forget to subscribe and leave us a review. It really helps us reach more people.

Jimmy: And if you’re looking for more resources, check out our website at ajobdonewell.com. We’ve got a wealth of information there to help you improve your performance and enjoyment at work.

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[00:35:25]
James: Until next time, take care and keep doing a job well.

Jimmy: Bye for now.