Season 3 – Episode 36: The Myth, the Madness, and the Middle Manager’s Dilemma
Work-life balance? Jimmy and James are here to dismantle the corporate fairy tale that you can magically split your life into two neat, equal halves.
The hosts, both veterans of demanding jobs, long hours, and the occasional existential crisis, argue that the very term “balance” is a setup. Balance implies precision, equality, and a static state, but life (and work) is anything but. It ebbs, it flows, and sometimes it dumps a truckload of stress on your doorstep. So, what’s the alternative? Optimisation. Figure out what makes you happy: status, money, family time, or becoming an earth mother, and chase that. But be warned: if your job is rubbish, no amount of free fruit or gym memberships will fix it.
From Jimmy’s email-induced holiday rage to James’s accidental swearing in front of seven-year-olds, this episode is packed with real stories, dark humour, and advice that doesn’t require an MBA to understand. They tackle the absurdity of HR initiatives, the toxicity of rigid boundaries, and the importance of flow—both in work and in life.
Five key points:
- Enjoy your job. If you don’t, Monday mornings will always feel like a punishment.
- Work-life balance is a myth; it’s really about optimisation—what are you prioritising?
- Life isn’t static, so stop pretending your boundaries should be.
- The system is the problem, not the individual. Fix the work, not the worker.
- Role modelling matters. If you’re emailing at midnight, your team will think they should too.
[00:03]
Jimmy: Hello, I’m Jimmy.
James: And I’m James. Welcome to A Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance and enjoyment at work.
[00:15]
James: Good afternoon. How are you doing?
Jimmy: Afternoon, James.
James: I’m fabulous. A bit hot, to be honest. A bit hot and sweaty. That’s not what you need to know, is it?
Jimmy: Very warm.
James: All a bit clammy under this shirt. Anyway.
[00:30]
James: So what are we talking about today then?
[00:40]
Jimmy: It’s great in theory, but we’re going to explore the fact that work-life balance implies precision and equality, which is an impossible goal. We’re going to share some of what we’ve learned in years of demanding jobs, travelling around the world, and doing long hours.
[01:00]
James: If you go on LinkedIn, as I try not to do, there’s just endless streams of posts about work-life balance and how you can achieve it. HR teams are campaigning about it. But it’s really difficult, right? If you’ve got a demanding job, young kids, elderly parents, or whatever else, it’s a bit mythical. How can you actually achieve that?
[01:27]
Jimmy: So we’re going to share our perspective on what you should perhaps be aiming for and what we’ve experienced in this space. Anyhow, we did put out a request a few weeks ago: if anyone’s got suggestions for subjects for season four, let us know. We’ll be back sometime in September. So far, we haven’t been inundated with messages requesting topics. So, maybe that’s a sign, James.
James: Maybe people don’t want us back.
[01:51]
Jimmy: Bear in mind, the purpose of the podcast is to help middle managers who are caught up in big organisations, frustrated by systems, and want to perform better and enjoy their work more. And when we say middle managers, we mean everyone from frontline team managers up to just below the exec. And in fairness, if you’re an exec, you should listen to this to understand what you’re doing to everyone else.
The fact that we’re stopping the podcast over the summer actually underlines the subject we’re talking about today. The reason we stop over the summer is that our audience numbers drop massively during the holidays. While people are away, they don’t want to think about work. So it’s understandable, but from our perspective, it takes a lot of effort to put these together. It’s not 20 minutes of us chatting—it’s days’ worth of work to get this polished performance. So it doesn’t make sense for us in terms of effort versus reward. So that’s why we say, “When it’s holiday time, let’s stop.” Which is a good segue into this.
[03:04]
James: So go on then. Work-life balance. Is this some sort of myth? Is it a buzzword? What do you think?
Jimmy: It’s a bit of both, James. I think it’s something that’s been talked about more and more over the last 10 years or so. Early in my career, I didn’t hear anything about it. It wasn’t a subject.
[03:24]
James: A bit of a unicorn. It’s this sort of searching for perfection. You can have it all. Well, can you?
Jimmy: I’m not being pedantic, but words are important. The fact that we call it work-life balance—“balance” to me implies precision and equality. But work and life isn’t like that. It can’t be that precise or prescribed. So I do think it’s something people aim for and aspire to, because the concept is good: don’t let work take over your life. Enjoy life outside of work. Get everything in its place. But I think it’s a bit of a fallacy.
[04:12]
James: Well, I’m a bit more cynical. I know you’ll find this hard to believe, but I’m a bit more cynical. I’ll tell you what I think it’s about: it’s just some sort of HR initiative. What it really means is they’ve realised there are too many people with really shit jobs that they don’t like doing, and they’re trying to balance it out a little bit. So if you’ve got a bad work-life balance, it’s because you’re busy doing a job you hate. There’s a thought for you.
[04:42]
Jimmy: I’m not sure I agree with that. I do think you’re right in that it often comes from HR, but I think our personal intention towards work-life balance is: we want to make sure work doesn’t take over our lives. The concept that HR teams and many leaders espouse comes from the same principle. I just think it’s often cack-handed in how it’s delivered. So it comes from a good space, but I’m not sure the delivery matches the intention.
[05:17]
James: For me, I don’t think it’s really about balance at all. I think it’s about optimisation. The question is: what are you optimising around? When will you know you’re having a good life? If you’re optimising around status, that’s one thing. If it’s money, that’s another. If it’s being home with your kids, that’s different. If it’s being an earth mother, that’s a different thing altogether. So it’s not about balance. It’s about achieving what’s important to you.
I’ve got a mate, John. I started working with John, and he’s gone on to do amazing things in his career—galactic vice president of this, that, and the other. He earns more money than I could imagine. But it’s come at a cost. John lives in Kuala Lumpur and sees his family once every three months when he gets back to Heathrow. His family live in Surrey, in a very nice house near the airport. Is that work-life balance? I’m looking at it thinking, “You’re nuts, John. Do you need the money?” But who the hell am I to judge? It’s not for me to say what’s right for him.
[06:48]
Jimmy: I think that’s a really good summary, James. Deciding what’s important to you and then being intentional about your choices. As you say, John could be very aware of the trade-offs he’s made, and we all do that. We’ve certainly made some trade-offs at times, maybe not as extreme as John’s, but we’ve done it.
[07:13]
James: I suppose the other thing worth pointing out is that when you talk about balance, it implies something static. But the reality is, work—well, life—isn’t static. It ebbs and flows. It ebbs with projects, it ebbs with the seasons. As we say, it’s summer, we’re going to knock off because nobody listens in the summer. But the same is true for everybody. So the whole concept of balance being this precise, static thing is just nuts. As I said, work ebbs and flows, life ebbs and flows.
[07:46]
Jimmy: Yeah. And unless your way of thinking and your processes ebb and flow a bit, you’re in for a hiding to nothing. I’ve worked with people who are very static in their thinking on work-home balance and very prescriptive, and it doesn’t work. It causes massive problems. I was working with one exec who was very rigid in their thinking. The things they wanted to do outside of work never compromised. They stuck to their guns, even though it caused them, their team, and the organisation some significant issues. If they’d compromised once or twice, it wouldn’t have caused any problems. But their thinking was, “This is a boundary, and I stick to it always, regardless of what’s happening.” I think that approach is quite damaging to a lot of people around you.
[08:42]
James: So first of all, can you really separate work from life? Are they two distinct things?
Jimmy: I don’t think you can. I think they’re so entwined. Quite often, people think very simplistically about hours: “I do this amount of hours, and I finish at six o’clock, and aren’t I doing well because I’m managing my work-home balance?” Whereas actually, it can be about attention, energy, mood—all of these things.
A great example is Severance (the TV show). The concept is that people have no memory of the other part of their life. When they’re at work, they have no understanding of their home life, and vice versa. That’s supposedly the perfect balance. But it’s totally unrealistic because if you’ve had an argument with your partner in the morning, you’re not turning up for work skipping and doing cartwheels, are you? And if you’ve had a tough day in the office and you’re shattered, you’re not suddenly full of energy at home.
[10:01]
James: Well, I actually got caught out on this once. My daughters went to a frightfully posh girls’ school. When they were in primary school, there was an after-school club, and you had to pick them up between 5:30 and 6:00. As we all know, 5:30 to 6:00 is often when you’re stuck on a call or something’s gone belly up.
So I went in to pick my daughters up, but I had two earplugs in, and in my head, I was in this god-awful car crash of a meeting where everything had gone belly up and some clown had just lost five million quid. At which point, I said in my most caring, sharing management voice, “For fuck’s sake, they didn’t do that, did they?” I didn’t realise where I was. There were all these seven-year-olds staring at me, open-mouthed, for my bad language. But you can’t separate these two things. That’s the point. And if you do, it goes badly for you.
[11:06]
Jimmy: Part of it is that work-life balance sets you up for failure. It’s more of a rhythm. It’s a work-home rhythm or a work-home flow, because that’s how it is. Life is more of a flow than a balance.
[11:20]
James: It’s like waves, isn’t it? There are all sorts of things that can take it one way or another. You might get a new job or a promotion, which will drag you into work, or you might have children or care responsibilities, which will drag you the other way. So it ebbs and flows, as I say.
[11:40]
Jimmy: Why do you think that organisations have latched onto work-life balance?
James: It’s just become another objective, another target. “We are going to make sure that everybody has a stable work-life balance.” And then, because it’s a target, it becomes an initiative-driven thing: “What have we done as an organisation to allow people to have a stable work-life balance?” Organisations do some good things—free fruit, gym memberships, flexible hours. All of these things are good. But I think it’s missing the point because the real issue in most organisations isn’t about time—it’s about the quality of work that people have. If you focused on giving people more rewarding work, they wouldn’t have such a big problem with it. So I think it’s misguided because it tends to be addressed by initiatives rather than addressing the cause of the problem.
Let me give you an example. When I was in my early 30s, I worked for Mars Confectionery. I used to drive to Slough twice a week and had to be there by nine o’clock in the morning because they had clocking-on targets. Now, bearing in mind I lived in Nottingham, that’s a two-and-a-half to three-hour drive there and back, twice a week. You’d think I’d have hated it. But I was as happy as Larry. Why? Because I had a great job. So the point about balance is: are you doing things you enjoy? If you’re doing things you enjoy, you’ll be happy.
[13:35]
Jimmy: Just to build on that, I think the intention behind encouraging people to have a good work-home balance is: happy workers are productive workers. Look after your people, and all that sort of stuff, which I get. But I think where it falls flat is that it’s often the responsibility of the individual. “James, you have to manage your work-home balance. It’s down to you.” But actually, the organisation has created the system that piles work onto you relentlessly and forces things the other way. So rather than address the failures in the system or the workload, it’s, “That’s okay, because I don’t have to worry about dumping on you—I’ve told you to look after your work-life balance.”
[14:28]
James: So your point is it’s about the system, and I totally agree. In one of our previous podcasts, we talked about Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s idea of flow—that balance between being anxious because you can’t do it and being bored because you can. When you’re fed up with your work, it’s because you’re either anxious or bored. That’s really about the system and the type of work you’ve been given. It’s not about prioritising, free fruit, or getting home to see your kids on time. The question is: how do you create that system for people where they’re in that state of flow? Because if they’re in that state and enjoying what they’re doing, they won’t worry so much about their work-life balance.
[15:21]
Jimmy: In a similar vein, I was doing a job where the work we did made a difference. It wasn’t just to make a profit. We were there to help vulnerable customers. But the job meant I had to go down to London on Sunday night and didn’t come home till Thursday night. So I was away from my family for the majority of the week. I could do that because I felt my work was meaningful. So some of it is about how you think about the situation. If you tell yourself your work’s meaningful, you’ll think about it a certain way. I could have been resentful, but I chose not to be. I thought, “I’m going to do this job, do it really well, enjoy it because I’m making a difference, and not live with regret.”
Does your mate John regret being away from home so much? You’ve almost got to be intentional about your reality.
I got caught out once with email discipline. Now, you’ve got so many channels that can reach you—even in your bedroom. I was at Center Parcs with my kids once. As I walked through the car park to meet them, I thought I’d just read a couple of emails. So I read an email from a particularly nasty person we worked with at the time, and it pissed me off no end. I thought, “You absolute wanker.” I didn’t reply, but the rest of the afternoon, I was in a foul mood. I’d let that person into my holiday. After that, I never made that mistake again. I just don’t look at my emails when I’m away. I’m really clear with everyone: I’m not going to look at my emails. They had a way of getting in touch in an emergency, but this wasn’t an emergency. I shouldn’t have let them in.
[17:42]
James: Yeah.
[17:42]
Jimmy: Another good example—this isn’t my work-home balance, but I was talking to a partner at one of the Big Four consultancy firms (who shall remain nameless). They’d worked out they had a problem with work-life balance because their partners would retire at 55. You had to retire. And they realised that the majority of them were dead before they were 60 because they’d completely burned them out. So whilst you earned a fortune, you weren’t around to spend it because you died soon after you left. Once they realised that statistic, they had to reorient how they managed people and their balance. But I thought that really brought it home: if you’re not careful, there’s an old saying in football—“Leave it all out on the pitch.” You want to be careful when you do that.
[18:40]
James: No, we’ll just leave it all out on the pitch.
Jimmy: Throw all your energy into it.
James: Yeah, a bit of a mistake.
[18:54]
Jimmy: But those two stories really reiterate the dichotomy here. On the one hand, it’s a question of what you’re optimising around. What will make you happy? Is it about having time with your kids? On the other hand, it’s about the system and the organisation you work for. Is it such a toxic environment that it’s okay for people to send threatening emails?
[19:18]
Jimmy: Moving on to some practical advice. What are you optimising around? Being intentional about the way you want your work and personal life to flow—that’s one way of thinking about it.
I think there are a few other things. You can plan for certain things. There are seasonal demands—budget cycles, volume of work, campaigns. Know that during those times, you might have to put a little more in and manage the compromises that come with it. Back to my example: when I came home on Thursday, between Thursday and Sunday, I didn’t do much work. I spent time with my family.
[20:08]
James: Another point: be explicit. You need to be clear about what’s right for you and what you’re optimising for. But you also need to have that conversation with the people around you. Your boss needs to know, and your partner needs to know. It’s okay for me to optimise around making as much money as possible, but is that what my partner wants? Don’t be surprised if you end up with a broken marriage if it isn’t. And it’s okay for me to optimise around spending as much time as I can with my kids, but is that what my boss wants? So being open and having those conversations helps. It’s just negotiation, really.
[20:47]
Jimmy: Yeah, having some flexibility. Setting boundaries is a good thing. Saying, “I will go home on a Thursday night and spend time with my kids and prioritise my kids.” I did that generally, but not slavishly. There were times when I had to pick something up. I remember when I was appearing before the Treasury Select Committee—I spent the weekend practising. So have boundaries, yes, but don’t be slavish to them. Be a little flexible because that’s the reality of working life.
[21:21]
James: I think another point is to be clear in your own mind about your circle of competence—where you’re in that state of flow. And then endeavour to stay in it. I’m not saying you should never move out of your circle of competence—you clearly should. But do it when you choose to. Know when you’re doing it. Don’t get pushed out of it. That will help you remain calm and level-headed.
[21:46]
Jimmy: Another important thing: bear in mind what’s important to you. It’s an individual choice. One of my favourite sayings is, “Comparison is the thief of joy.” If you spend all your time comparing yourself to others—like your mate John making a fortune—does that mean he’s doing better than you? I remember sitting down with a former colleague. He’d got involved in a business, it had grown, and he’d made a lot of money. I said, “Wow, you made a fortune. Well done.” He said, “Yeah, but I haven’t seen my kids grow up, and I ended up getting divorced.” Maybe that wasn’t the best work-home flow he was managing. So don’t compare your decisions to others’. Their circumstances will be completely different.
[22:37]
James: There’s a very good example of that. I worked alongside a chap called Paul for a long time. Our jobs were similar—we both darted up and down the country endlessly. Paul spent the most on expenses because of the nature of the travel, but his went on hotel bills. I spent a similar amount, but mine went on travel bills. Why? Because my children were younger than Paul’s. I decided it was worth spending three hours on a train to get home and see my kids, whereas he decided it was worth being away from home to get a good night’s sleep. It depends. Circumstances change depending on where you are in life.
But I think there’s another important thing we haven’t touched on yet. I’ll argue it’s all about the system. It’s not about you as an individual setting your priorities and boundaries. It’s about the system you work in. But this is also about us—as managers, we create that system for the people who work for us. So what should we do or not do with the people who work for us?
[23:50]
Jimmy: Back to my point about intentions. As managers, same as organisations, our intention is good: “I want you to enjoy your work. I want you to be productive. I want you to have a good life outside of work.” So we espouse the virtues and empower you to make your decisions. But I think a lot of it stops at words. We say the words, but the key is: what are the actions you take? What’s the follow-through?
For example, how do you role-model it? Think about your behaviours. Are you the first one in the office in the morning and the last one to leave at night? Because if you are, people around you will feel pressure to do the same, even if you say, “I don’t want you to do this.”
[24:50]
James: I’ve got a very good example of that. My daughter’s worked for a couple of people. She’s 23 now. One manager said to her, “Well, make sure you put the hours in.” My daughter is keen, young, and enthusiastic—she’ll work the hours and then some. She had to go to the doctor’s, and her manager said, “Make sure you put the hours in.” At which point, she thought, “Well, I’ve been putting the hours in and some.” So what did she do? She worked to rule: “If you want to count the hours, I’ll count the hours too.”
She worked for another bloke whose attitude was, “You’re here to work 40 hours a week, but I start my clock when I climb into the shower in the morning because I recognise that’s thinking time.” The way you behave has a fundamental impact on the people around you.
[25:36]
Jimmy: Another good example is how you handle emails. You have to be explicit with people about your email habits. When I was working in London, I’d often finish my main work by 5:30 or 6:00 at the latest. Then I’d go to the gym, have something to eat, and do an hour of work later in the evening. I had to be clear with my team: “This is because it suits me. I’m away from home on a Tuesday night. If I were at home, I wouldn’t do this, and I won’t do it on a Friday night.” But you also need to make it clear: if you send an email at 9:30 at night, you’re not expecting a reply. In fact, if I got a reply, I’d ask, “What were you doing?” So there’s an element of role-modelling and leading by example.
Another thing you can do as a manager is have explicit conversations and help your team think through this. It’s difficult to achieve, but everyone wants to do it. If you help your team think about what’s important to them and make intentional choices, you’ll support them better.
[27:01]
James: Well, yes. Actually, this is about being a good boss. Your job is to get the most out of the people working for you. If you burn them out, what do you expect?
[27:17]
Jimmy: I still love the way you talk about people and spreadsheets.
James: Well, yeah, but it’s about good management. It just is.
[27:25]
Jimmy: It is, but I think actively helping people work it out, rather than just the platitudes of “go and figure this out,” is one of the things you can do to support your teams.
[27:37]
James: And one final thought: if you’re worried about your own work-life balance, it’s a lot easier to enjoy your job if the people who work for you are enjoying theirs. So it’s in your interest.
[27:55]
Jimmy: So, to summarise: work-life balance is a popular concept, often discussed. I think it’s a fallacy in terms of balance being equal and precise. Life is more of a flow.
James: And optimise around what’s important to you.
[28:15]
Jimmy: Recognise that work changes and is more of a flow than a balance. There’ll be times when work is demanding or your personal life is demanding, and that’s okay. Just go with the flow rather than setting rigid boundaries you always stick to.
James: And performance is about the system, not the people. Telling people to prioritise isn’t necessarily helpful. Helping them with the system they’re working in and removing obstacles has a much bigger effect.
[28:53]
Jimmy: And modelling rather than just saying the words. “Work-home balance is important. I want you to have a good work-home balance.” Role-model what that is. Help them be more intentional about their choices.
James: And I think the final thing is just about sanity and common sense rather than some corporate popularity contest.
[29:20]
Jimmy: And it’s an individual thing. Think about it from your perspective. What works for you, James, is different from what works for me, and that’s okay.
[29:34]
James: Lovely. Well, on that note—
Jimmy: Here endeth the lesson.
James: I shall see you again in September, if not before.
Jimmy: Well, I suspect I might see you before September. I hope everyone has a fantastic summer.
James: Cheers now.
Jimmy: See you soon.
[29:49]
James: We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast, from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing: getting the job done well. Easier said than done.
So if you’ve got unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck, if your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiralling, and that big IT transformation project that you’ve been promised just keeps failing to deliver—we can help.
If you need to improve your performance, your team’s performance, or your organisation’s, get in touch at jimmy@ajobdonewell.com or james@ajobdonewell.com.
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