What Can We Learn about Customer Experience?

James: 0:03

hello, I’m James.Jimmy: 0:04

Hi, I’m Jimmy.James: 0:05

Welcome to A Job Done Well,Jimmy: 0:08

the podcast about the world of work and how to improve the daily grindJames (2): 0:13

Good afternoon. How you doing?Jimmy (2): 0:14

Good afternoon, James. I’m well, how are you?James (2): 0:16

I’m fabulous for a Tuesday. Thank you very much. So what are we talking about today?Jimmy (2): 0:19

about today? today? we are doing the next episode in our customer experience series. We are doing a case study on Virgin Media.James (2): 0:29

That’ll beJimmy (2): 0:29

Well, we both had horrendous experience with them. Started wondering if we are alone. So, it seems like theJames (2): 0:39

not.Jimmy (2): 0:41

It seems like Virgin Media are fast becoming one of the most disliked companies based on the service they give their customers. So, we are going to be seeing what you can learn from Virgin Media as a case study to try and improve your company’s results.James (2): 0:55

But, before we get into that then, what else have you been up to?Jimmy (2): 0:57

up to? So, two things from me. One Forrest are safe but not mathematically safe. So that’s good progress. I can relax My season ticket that I’ve just spent fortunes on I will be watching Premier League football, so I’m relieved for that. And secondly, which I won’t talk about now, Virgin Media saga continues.James (2): 1:18

Ah, alright. Well I, this week I released, very exciting, my audio book.Jimmy (2): 1:24

anybody wants toJames (2): 1:24

if anybody wants to listen to my voice, there’s an audio book you can pay to listen to it as well. So, quite exciting really.Jimmy (2): 1:31

So you can listen to this for free or pay.James (2): 1:34

Yeah, but the paid version is much better quality. ItJimmy (2): 1:37

It is good actually, is worth well worth it.James (2): 1:39

I did the editing on that, not like this shower here where Jimmy normally does the editing. willJimmy (2): 1:45

will be cut out.James (2): 1:46

Yeah, right, go on then. So, why are we talking about Virgin MediaJimmy (2): 1:50

we said we said we’d do a series of episodes on customer experience to help learn things to do and things to avoid. Now, we are going to have a mix of guests. Experts on who you can get some insights from and case studies. And we picked on Virgin Media based on our recent experience. Now, the way we’ve done this, we’ve had a, I would say a, quick glance, so a shallow dive.James (2): 2:15

A shallow dive,Jimmy (2): 2:16

a snorkel. into Virgin Media’s performance. So this is very much our subjective view rather than an analytical deep dive. But we’ve taken it as a learning opportunity to help improve performance and enjoyment of work.James (2): 2:30

Right then. So, go on then. Start off with the company accounts and the the PR. What did you learn?Jimmy (2): 2:36

Well, just a little bit of background before we get into that. The Virgin Media is actually Virgin Media O2, jointly owned by a company called Liberty Global and Telefonica. So both of these are multi billion It originally evolved out of Telewest back in the 80s, NTL in the 90s. These, for those of you who don’t remember, were cable, broadband, TV, phone providers. Again,James (2): 3:08

NTL? Was that the one in Nottingham?Jimmy (2): 3:11

NTL was a local company. So again though, billion pound companies all joined together Lately part of the Virgin Group. Owned by Sir Richard Branson no less so a lot of mergers they own their own fiber network So they’re not reliant on BT And in 2006 they signed a 30 year deal With Sir Richard and Virgin to use the Virgin branding.James (2): 3:37

do you get paid for that do youJimmy (2): 3:38

probablyJames (2): 3:39

They could be called law the media. I they are settled for a couple of millionJimmy (2): 3:43

for thatJames (2): 3:45

Thank you. All right.Jimmy (2): 3:47

They also had lengthy battles with Sky, so really messy legal battles about what Sky channels they could show and which ones they can’t. They were bought in 2013 by Liberty for 15 billion, and the Telefonica merger happened in 2020. Alright,James (2): 4:04

what does that tell us? Let me summarise that. So there’s a whole load of complex mergers, which I imagine integrations are tough. So you’ve got, yeah, a load of corporate. Challenges based on thatJimmy (2): 4:17

The lawyers involved in this with all those takeovers, mergers and battles with Sky. They must be, must have made a fortune.James (2): 4:27

The other thing I learned having a quick look at the company accounts was it tends to be a it’s a very Numbers based organization. What do I mean by numbers? Well, they talk an awful lot about profitability and they also talk a lot about the number of customers they’ve got. They do claim quite high on in their own accounts that they put customers first. there’s not a whole lot of substance to that number. Yeah, IJimmy (2): 4:52

lot of substance in it. Yeah, right. That’s it, the frenzyJames (2): 5:04

notJimmy (2): 5:05

it, and it goes out andJames (2): 5:12

And what we can tell from this conversation is I got a bit bored looking through it and I didn’tJimmy (2): 5:15

through it. You never got no. But what we did learn is they are the second biggest broadband provider with nearly 6 million, customers. They’ve got nearly 6 million fixed line customers as well and nearly 45 million mobile customers. so a HugeJames (2): 5:31

Huge organization. Yeah, and what is interesting financially is the amount of cash they are spending in infrastructure. So I think the number was two billion quid last year. So they’re obviously paying a big infrastructure bill again.Jimmy (2): 5:42

are spending in infrastructure. I think it was 2 billion. quid last year. So they’re obviously paying a big infrastructure billJames (2): 6:01

billion. So earnings before interest,Jimmy (2): 6:04

So, earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortization. In other words, profit. how much money they made. So they made billions.James (2): 6:13

that slightly surprising toJimmy (2): 6:16

Well, the thing that was slightly surprising to me, but, let’s come back to this, but they they employ 16, 000 people. and actually they weren’t rated that badly. 3. 7 out of 5 on Glassdoor.James (2): 6:29

we used to work forJimmy (2): 6:31

5, a good score? There areJames (2): 6:36

was aJimmy (2): 6:37

companies on there I’veJames (2): 6:41

3. 9. It’s not badJimmy (2): 6:42

get higher scores still and they’reJames (2): 6:47

on, There are some other companies on there that I’ve worked for which get higher scores still, and they’re a shamble. So there is a little bit of a Pinch of salt,Jimmy (2): 6:53

of salt, there. and in their staff surveys internally, they claimed that nearly 80 percent of their staff were engaged. Again,James (2): 7:07

okay. Pinch of salt, but not bad. Could be an awful lot worse. however, we talked about money, Yeah. AsJimmy (2): 7:16

say? well. Money? Big, Customers. So they were the bottom of the table for customer satisfaction looking at which magazine, That was in March of this year. The things that they hated service and support was atrocious. They, 25 percent of people said they were difficult to get in touch with. 20 percent said they provided poor value for money. They were described as expensive service, atrocious, unfair price hiked, shocking diabolical to deal with. And even worse than that, on Trustpilot,James (2): 7:54

on Trustpilot,Jimmy (2): 7:55

they scored 1. 6 out of 5. And that was with 90, 000 reviews. So, we are not alone. James, You are correct. There is not just the two of us. There are 90, 000 other people who not only getting bad service but are willing to go online and say as much. now. Now there were some smaller surveys that were out there like trust pilots, some smaller ones. Some of those were higher than than 1. 6 out of five, but some of them were lower.James (2): 8:25

But 1. 6 out 90, 000 reviews. That’s going somewhere.Jimmy (2): 8:29

It is a little bit, isn’t it?James (2): 8:31

And the other thing is we talked to some of our friends and colleagues as we do about this episode And we got a whole host of other feedback and comments But we can’t go into that at all because those very expensive lawyers will be on our backJimmy (2): 8:44

Yes, and just to bring the the experience that we’ve had of Berger media to life a little bit, I was always told, stay away from them unless you have to. So I did until I moved to my current house where the need for speed with working from home meant that the only choice of fast broadband was Virgin Media. So they have a monopoly on providing that sort of service to my house. And it was good until the contract expired when it became a Kafkaesque nightmare. Lots of phone calls, lots of chats, you know, wasted days of my time. Trying to resolve it. I was I was lied to. I was fobbed off. I had complaints ignored. They just shut down queries whenever they can. I mean, a lot of the staff that I dealt with seemed to either not care or took absolutely ages to get anything done. The second experience, which is way worse, because that, treating me bad is one thing. I am, I’m friends with. An old guy who’s 82 and he can use no technology So he was very worried because he got a message from virgin saying that they were Putting his price up from 65 pound a month to 156 pound a monthJames (2): 10:03

right, so let’s just clarify this a wee bit because When jimmy says he’s a friend of his Not strictly to jimmy does some charity work sort of healthy aging type stuff and he talks to a guy who is on his own in a council flats, 82 years old, and they charge him how much?Jimmy (2): 10:23

from 65 to 156. By the way, they’re also providing him with super fast broadband, which he didn’t even know he had because he can’t use any technology. So I said that I’d help him try and resolve this. Now, they don’t deal with fundable customers at all well. They have no, they’re not set up. They’ve got some wonderful things. Policy statements, But actually that doesn’t translate into the service they provide the customers. You know what they said to him? To go online and provide details of his vulnerability. Two problems there. One, he can’t use technology. too. he can’t pass security to get onto their website anyhow. So that’s really helpful. The point being, not sure that they look after any of their customers. no matter how vulnerable. I did, at the end of the day, a needle in a haystack someone really good to help. But even when that happened, they still messed up. everything. I had to go back in and try and resolve it again. So this is trying to help somebody who’s vulnerable.James (2): 11:29

somebody who’s vulnerable. Right, so, how many times did you phone them just about this particular issue, do youJimmy (2): 11:35

I think I contacted them probably half aJames (2): 11:40

Yeah.Jimmy (2): 11:41

times. I did it by chat. Yeah. I phoned up.James (2): 11:43

Yeah.Jimmy (2): 11:44

contacted’em by Twitter. Yeah. All of them. I was really explicit that this was a extremely vulnerable person whose health was suffering as a result of the stress that they wereJames (2): 11:54

were causing. And how long, I mean you say six or seven times, and howJimmy (2): 11:59

it’s, it’s, it is taken me about a month to get it resolved.James (2): 12:02

So how much time will you spend? I’ve probably spentJimmy (2): 12:05

I’ve probably spent best part of a day, if you added it all up together.James (2): 12:10

Yeah, so it’s a lotJimmy (2): 12:12

Yeah, And that’s me being able to negotiate my way around their processes. He can’t even do that. So how many people are out there who are struggling with this organization who can’t deal with it? They don’t know and they don’t care, frankly.James (2): 12:28

frankly. So my experience hasn’t been that bleak. Um, But However, what do I see? I see massive price hikes at the end of contracts unhelpful processes. So for example, I’ve got a landline. They can’t get rid of my landline. Nobody else in the world’s got a landline except me, but they refuse to take it off my contract. Makes me wonder whether or not the processes are deliberately unhelpful. I’ve been trained, they’ve trained me, right? I always phone at the end of the contract to try and renegotiate because it’s foolish not to. And actually, if it weren’t for the fact, and this comes back to the point about infrastructure, if it weren’t for the fact that they’re the only fast supplier in my streets, I would go tomorrow. I’d just like to contrast it with my mobile phone supplier, a company called Giffgaff, who I can’t get enough of, Once a month they send me a lovely little text which says James you’re paying too much. We’d like to move you on to this lower cost contract. Do you agree? Yeah. So just a totally different point, but there you go. So there’s the rant about Virgin Media before we go on to the, so what I think we’ll go into a commercial break.James: 13:34

We cover a whole host of topics on thisJimmy: 13:37

Purpose to corporate jargon.James: 13:39

but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well.Jimmy: 13:43

Easier said than done. So, If you’ve got Unhappy customers or employees Bosses or regulators Breathing down your neckJames: 13:51

of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you’ve been promised just keeps failing to deliver. SoJimmy: 14:01

Can help if you need to improve your performance, your team’s performance, or your organization’s. Get in touch at jimmy at jobdonewell. comJames: 14:11

Or james at jobdonewell. com.Jimmy (2): 14:15

Okay. So we’ve talked about both the kind of numbers that are out there, some of the reviews, our experiences, But, you can’t argue, James, they are highly profitable.James (2): 14:27

they are horrible. I think the top man, a hundredJimmy (2): 14:33

think the top man, 100 million wasJames (2): 14:36

tell you. It was,Jimmy (2): 14:39

It was, I think it was dollars though.James (2): 14:40

was dollars, though. Five dollars. Exactly. Yeah and the to be quite Surprisingly enough, SurprisinglyJimmy (2): 14:50

enough,James (2): 14:50

Yeah, so talking to pissed off people is leaving them happyJimmy (2): 14:55

Don’t know, allegedly they must be doing somethingJames (2): 14:57

Yeah, all right, so on the positive note they have got they’re making a huge amount of money and Staff seem to like working there. Yeah, I do worry a wee bit that there’s A short term versus long term thing going on here Yeah, so it is the epitome of an organization which is making a first fast book versus one Which is trying to Well, I think, you know,Jimmy (2): 15:19

Well, I think, your point about long term versus short term we’ve both said that the reason why we’re with Virgin Media, there’s no alternative. When there is an alternative, and undoubtedly there will be one day, are you going to stick with them?James (2): 15:33

day,Jimmy (2): 15:35

And I think everyone else will be at some point as well. Yeah,James (2): 15:37

You do wonder what would happen if a company like Amazon, somebody who’s got really deep pockets and takes a long term perspective, came and entered the market, and what that would do for them.Jimmy (2): 15:47

I mean, naturally, in this sort of economy, you expect either market forces, so competition, to, force people to behave differently, or, the government regulate this sector., I’m not sure what Ofcom are doing looking at broadband providers, the service they provide. But, they’re usually the things that help balance out these things, but that doesn’t seem to applyJames (2): 16:13

IJimmy (2): 16:13

And I do wonder, we said that they, they use the Virgin branding and they’ve got a long term deal on that. But, I wonder if, because I don’t know about you, James, but you know, Years ago Virgin used to be like a,James (2): 16:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah,Jimmy (2): 16:30

For great service. GreatJames (2): 16:32

Remember Virgin Atlantic? Yeah, yeah,Jimmy (2): 16:34

was, you know, amazing company. You’d buy their products just on the basis of their name. Now, I mean, that legacy is massively tarnished with the service that these organisations nowJames (2): 16:46

do you think Sir Richard Bankson is sleeping well at night on that or not?Jimmy (2): 16:50

know, I think money makes a very soft pillowJames (2): 16:52

a very soft pillow for some. That point, does the man who’s earning a hundred million dollars a year care?Jimmy (2): 16:57

year care? Well, he doesn’t need to work for many years, does he, before he moves on?James (2): 17:02

However, right, this is a very interesting chat, yeah. But it’s all a bit corporate strategy, which is not what we’re about, let’s be honest, yeah. So what I’m really interested in is organizational performance, right? So what can we learn, Learn from this? SoJimmy (2): 17:17

So I think there are, and this really is podcast. There are some real practical lessons that you can learn from Virgin media. The first one, obviously being slightly flippant, how not to doJames (2): 17:30

you canJimmy (2): 17:31

But I do think you can equally learn from organisations that do things the wrong way as the right, we all want to go and learn from the first directs of and John Lewis’s of this world. You should look at some of these organisations as well. For me, the things that struck me, well, purpose. I mean, what is the overall purpose of this organisation regarding their customers? do they, do they have a focus on their customers? it wasn’t clear. The business model is quite clear. Good products. High prices at the end of your contracts. Shocking service.James (2): 18:11

The lesson for me there though is this whole point about what gets measured gets done. Yeah, because if you look at the reports, it’s all about customer numbers and profitability. And,Jimmy (2): 18:20

And also, I think the interesting point, I’m putting two and two together here, but, if you were you were very impressed by their two. billion pound investment in infrastructure, I would guess that some of that investment buys you new customers. So, you’re not, they’re not, they’re not looking after existing customers and retaining those customer numbers. And actually, their numbers did start to slow down at the start of this year. ButJames (2): 18:47

But from a profitability point of view, I mean, getting to the key question, how could they make things better?Jimmy (2): 18:52

of view, I’m going to get to the key question, how could they make things better? The bots that they use get you caught in loops. I think that’s because one of the things they do is design their contact strategy with their customers and the way they interact with their customers From their point of view, looking inside out, which often will be about how do I save money on tactical contact right now, as opposed to thinking outside in. So from the customer’s point of view, you know, what are they calling for? Is my organization, you know, easy to contact to navigate? Do the channels work for the customers or for me? Can they get through to the right people? Am I getting first contact resolution? So how do I deal with complaints? I mean, I actually, had, I actually made a complaint and it just disappeared.James (2): 20:02

disappeared. But the point is, I think from an operational point of view, the question is, why is this customer phoning me? And how do I make sure they never, ever have to phone me again? Well,Jimmy (2): 20:12

this customer phoning me and how do I make sure they never head out to phone me again? listen to your customers, what do you see on social media, what do you see on these reviews, one of the most telling things I did that really helped me open up my eyes to customers was running someJames (2): 20:47

running some focusJimmy (2): 20:48

Just actually getting customers to talk about their experience, their needs, what they’re there for. That was an absolute eye opener. So, do Virgin Media do those sorts of things in terms of listening to their customers? And if they do, are they actually using those insights? Or do they sit over in some customer experience team that’s tucked over over yonder?James (2): 21:12

ignoring.Jimmy (2): 21:13

Or are they at the heart of how they design? their operation and how they run it on a day to day basis? Right,James (2): 21:20

But the point being, understand what your customers are phoning you about, design your operations so that you can deal with thatJimmy (2): 21:26

back. Exactly. ButJames (2): 21:28

But then there’s more to that then, isn’t there, because it’s not just so much, or it’s not entirely about the contact strategy, it’s about the capability of your staffs and systems and stuff and the things that you put behind that.Jimmy (2): 21:38

it’s about the capability of your staffs and systems and stuff and the things that? you put behind that. It took them 20 minutes to figure out the discounts. That should be, like, there. atJames (2): 22:02

It should be when they’re giving them out left, rightJimmy (2): 22:05

it should. They should be designed to help their users give the service to the customers that they need. So systems and processes. technology, is that really working for your customers? Is the training of your staff adequate? and do you have the right resources? I mean, how many organisations now do you get through to, and it’s, and it’s a busy period. It’s always a busy period.James (2): 22:30

So really two things there then. Understand why your customers are phoning you and design around that and then make sure that you’ve got the capability in place behind that toJimmy (2): 22:38

that. And I mind making a bet that if Virgin Media invested some of their money in getting those things right, they would change the numbers from 1. and Bottom of the which surveys, and their staff would enjoy their jobs more. And in the long term, to your point, they would probably, find themselves more successful and more profitable.James (2): 23:04

Does attack the market, they won’t have anywhere to run because they’d be soJimmy (2): 23:08

Yeah, because you’re on you, you’re on the the the commercial moral high ground at the moment It’s just that they’re not being attacked by anyone, or the government aren’t regulating them.James (2): 23:22

very short summary then, what can we get from that?Jimmy (2): 23:24

The point we’re raising around this case study is you can learn from the best and the worst.James (2): 23:30

Yeah, I think for me it comes back to that whole thing about measures and purpose. They really drive performance because it drives the way you think about things and how you design things.Jimmy (2): 23:39

tactically, I think if they designed their processes from a customer’s perspective, they could make a massive killing on operational cost savings. Because there is so much waste in their systems.James (2): 23:52

so a beautiful demonstration of where good service really could cost less.Jimmy (2): 23:57

Absolutely. Hopefully you’ve enjoyed today’s episode. If you’d like to talk more about how you can either learn from the best or the worst, or put some of the lessons that we’ve talked about in place in your organization, then get in touch with us at jimmy. at jobdonewell. comJames (2): 24:15

or james. atjobdonewell. com very for listening.Jimmy: 24:20

If you’d like to find out more about how James and I can help your business, then have a look at our website at ajobdonewell.Com.