How to Master the ‘Art’ of Managing Upwards and Still Sleep at Night.

0:03

Hello, I’m James. Hi, I’m Jimmy and welcome to A Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James: 0:15

Good afternoon, how are you doing?

Jimmy: 0:17

I’m doing well. How are you, James?

James: 0:18

I’m fabulous, thank you very much for Wednesday. Halfway through the week. Although in my position, the week loses it’s meaning. You know the old semi retirement thing? It’s great. I no longer have the Monday morning blues, but, I don’t get that Friday afternoon feeling either. a bit six and two threes. Anyway, what are we talking about today then?

Jimmy: 0:36

Today, we are discussing the topic of managing upwards.

James: 0:40

I’m going to get a masterclass, am I?

Jimmy: 0:42

You’re going to give a masterclass

James: 0:44

Jimmy’s sitting here with his little white hat with his eye holes cut out. He is the grand master of managing

Jimmy (3): 0:50

I’m not sure that’s, I’m not sure that’s the analogy we want to

James (2): 0:54

Anyway, so we’re going to talk about managing upwards and um, yeah, maybe, is it playing politics or is it good for your career? That’s a fair question. A

Jimmy (3): 1:03

subject that we are going to discuss how you can get value out of it. Do it well, do it authentically, without feeling like a brown

James (2): 1:11

nose. Ah, alright, there you go. So, anyway, in the interim, what have you been up to this week?

Jimmy (3): 1:15

A couple of things this week. Um, I am still basking in the glory of, uh, Forrest winning at Anfield at the weekend.

James (2): 1:23

Ah, very

Jimmy (3): 1:24

First time in 55 years.

James (2): 1:26

that right? Yeah. Anfield, in Liverpool. I bet you’re a man. How

Jimmy (3): 1:31

do you know that it’s in Liverpool?

James (2): 1:32

I went to university

Jimmy (3): 1:33

I was gonna say, ain’t ain’t’cause of your football

James (2): 1:35

it’s not, you’re right.

Jimmy (3): 1:36

No. It’s not you. Right. But the, I’ve just got back from a week in ibi, me and Vic and the girls.

James (2): 1:41

Oh, how did that go? Did you have your full on sort of love island look, you know, your white shirt and your white

Jimmy (3): 1:47

Yeah, we, we were out there at, at I Ocean Beach. Um, but it was, we had a really great time. But one of the things that I observed, we’d stayed in this hotel and it was fantastic. Five star hotel, really nice. But the service was poor. And just everything about the hotel, whether it was the way that the number of sunbeds they had, the coffee machines, the lifts, the toasters, everything didn’t quite work. It was like they had cut corners all over the place. And as a result, service really suffered. But the thing that made it stand out the most, they had the main restaurants, buffet restaurant, like really good food, but you had to queue up. Normally in a buffet restaurant, straight in any, you know. We had to queue up, up to half an hour at one point to get into, to get in to serve yourself in a buffet restaurant. And it was just, you’d looked at it, the restaurant itself wasn’t that busy, you know, plenty of food, they never ran out of everything. Drinks were served nice and everything. It was just the fact they didn’t have enough people sitting you down. You just think, you look at

James (2): 2:49

So hang on, let’s just get really

Jimmy (3): 2:51

amount of money. you?

James (2): 2:52

did some bottleneck analysis didn’t you?

Jimmy (3): 2:54

That’s not what I would call it. I call it getting

James (2): 2:57

my work is done, my work

Jimmy (3): 3:00

you could see it and it’s just like just just for the cutting small corners just the experience has been transformed for all of their guests, What have you been up to?

James: 3:09

Well, I have been worrying about much deeper

Jimmy: 3:12

Okay, what?

James (2): 3:13

Well, I actually I listened to another podcast and the rest is politics. Very interesting

Jimmy (3): 3:19

Stiff competition. They’re only marginally more

James (2): 3:22

they’re very worried about us. Um, but they were talking about the Darcy report, which is the whole thing about how well the NHS is or isn’t run. And that was quite fascinating. tragically, I might pick up the whole report and have a look at It could be, but they were just talking about, you know, some hospitals perform really well and other hospitals don’t. So you’ve got variation in the system. they were talking about technology and on the one hand you’ve got people pinning their hopes on digitization. but then the other hand, they’re just pointing out that actually, despite all the extra technology they put in, productivity has got worse.

Jimmy (3): 3:58

the NHS or luxury hotels in Ibiza, it doesn’t really matter. The law of the thinking comes to

James (2): 4:05

well, you go. So I’m very interesting stuff, I think, and what is really sad is I feel that we are very qualified to go and sort out a hotel in IBI A, whereas the NHS, we probably shy away from that one, but onto more important things, managing upwards So go on then, describe what it means and what we’re talking about.

Jimmy (3): 4:26

So we’re talking about how you manage relationships with senior people in your organization. And like you and many others, earlier in my career, I shied away from it. I didn’t want to get involved in it. I didn’t see the value in it, didn’t feel comfortable exercising anything. Later in my career, I realized actually the importance of it and how you can get value from it. But it’s it’s a negative term, managing upwards.

James (2): 4:51

yeah, yeah. He is very good at managing upwards. It’s not something you say about somebody you like, is

Jimmy (3): 4:55

No, and the connotation is really, that they haven’t done anything to deserve it. you’re busy managing upwards instead of doing the work

James (2): 5:03

with yourself.

Jimmy (3): 5:03

results. You know what I mean?

James (2): 5:05

yeah. And it has got a very bad reputation and I have to admit, it is something that I personally feel. Quite, uncomfortable about, but I do think there is a frame of reference associated with it. And we should, talk about that. But, as you know, I do like a good Venn diagram,

Jimmy (3): 5:23

So you’ve got, you’ve got a law of the model

James (2): 5:24

the model. I’ve got a law of the model for you. and if you want, if you go online, you can go to our website and we’ll put the law of the diagram up there. But it’s brilliant, A Venn diagram. So you’ve got, haven’t you?

Jimmy (3): 5:34

got, you know, you know when you have to keep referring to stuff you do is

James (2): 5:37

know.

Jimmy (3): 5:38

brilliant

James (2): 5:40

This is deep thought this is. So you’ve got two circles interlocking, You

Jimmy (3): 5:46

I remember what VE

James (2): 5:47

Yeah, okay. How did you get in

Jimmy (3): 5:49

law? The splain? Yeah, right. Find diagrams. Thank you. Right.

James (2): 5:53

So on the one circle you’ve got people who are very good at managing upwards. And the other circle you’ve got people who are very good at managing downwards. we’ve all had a boss like that. But there is actually a sweet spot where the person is very good at managing upwards and managing downwards. And that’s the point you need to be in. It’s a question of how do you get both. there is, of course, just being logically correct with my Venn diagram, there is another category, which is people who are no fricking good at managing upwards or downwards. And I’ve met a couple of those as well.

Jimmy (3): 6:23

I’ll bet you have. Bye. In all seriousness, the sweet spot is what we’re going to explore today. How do you manage upwards in the best way possible? So let’s, let’s just talk about why, why would you do it? And I think there are two big kind of drivers for this. One is you do it for yourself.

James (2): 6:46

Yeah.

Jimmy (3): 6:48

You do it ultimately to make your life, your work life better. It can be to manage your career. It can be making people aware of what you have achieved, what your capability is. It can lead to promotions. It can lead to help in the future. It can lead to sponsorship. It can lead to investment. There’s lots of things that help you personally in your work life. Second bit,

James (2): 7:15

Which is the one I think I feel more strongly about.

Jimmy (3): 7:18

is your job and it is about getting things done related to your job. So removing obstacles, getting help, developing a work pipeline, helping others. Yeah, all of these things. I think the definitely, both add value and your point will be, you know, the second one is, is a lot more comfortable. It’s a lot more tangible. It’s a lot less selfish as the

James (2): 7:45

I think the whole thing about being good at managing up and managing down, your team, the people who work for you will really value it if you are doing it to remove obstacles, get work, stuff like that. So it’s really, for me, that’s the key to it. But I do take your points, Yeah, there are ways in which you can help, help you. Get the job that

Jimmy (3): 8:10

Other, another point about your team is often I’ve found it good to share the achievements of your team so they can get recognition as well as you. It’s it, I guess that that’s the fine line is if you do it. For you and you get recognition on your own. that’s selfish. And I think that’s where it falls down. If you do it and you and your team get the, the,

James (2): 8:38

credit and the recognition.

Jimmy (3): 8:39

that, then I think that’s a real

James (2): 8:40

Absolutely. The whole basking in the glory of others. Yeah.

Jimmy (3): 8:43

like, you know, like the. They like recognition. And it is the difference between basking in the glory of others versus standing on the shoulders of others. And that’s the, the, the difference for me. But I when I think about doing it for me personally, remember one of our former bosses, Lindsay, he said to me, who, who’s actually managing your career? Are you managing your career? Are you thinking about the opportunities? Are you creating the opportunities or are you just leaving it to your boss? Why is your boss in charge of your career? Because they will no doubt make decisions, sometimes for your interest, but ultimately in their best interest. You’ve seen lots of instances where, the boss holds on to somebody in their team too long, doesn’t help them get promoted outside of their team. All of those things is because you’re just letting your boss do it. And your boss doesn’t always have the time to do it. You know, I remember Lee a former boss of ours He talked to me about it and I was saying, well, surely you share my successes, my achievements, my capability with your peers and your boss. And he was like, well, when I see my boss, I’ve got 25 things to talk about, of which you’re one of them. I’m not able to do you justice that you need to take responsibility yourself for sharing those things. And the reason why you’re sharing them is because you’re trying to help people. if they understand what things have worked for you, they can learn, they can understand, they can, you know, take advantage of that.

James (2): 10:20

For me, it really is a question of why are you doing this? Are you doing it? Just to promote yourself or are you doing it to promote the work you’re doing and to promote your team and get opportunities And if it’s the latter, I think it’s great. If it’s the former, then I really struggle with it. and a lot of this actually comes down to the organization that you work So, we have both worked in organizations where they have the, every six months the annual cull and put people in boxes, the old cross calibration or whatever you call it. And, It just creates toxicity because everybody spends the last month of the year running around telling everybody what a great job they’ve

Jimmy (3): 11:04

Yeah. But they’re doing it in that instance, they’re telling them for their own means. They’re not telling them so that they can pot, potentially people can understand more about them, more about their capabilities for the future, what the opportunities are to create the work pipeline. Yes, but that whole cultural thing has a effect on the productivity of the organization. There’s an article published in I think it was the New Yorker, but they talked about Microsoft’s lost decades. And Microsoft’s famous for their whole rank stacking process. And Articles in there where people were saying, well, the political game was much more important within Microsoft than the technological game. So to get on, it was not about what you did, but what you were seen to do. And it can be really toxic. So if you are running an organization, the key thing is to minimize the need to do it, unless it’s for the benefit of the organization. organisation. Okay, before we get into how you do this well and how you do it authentically, what are some of the other things that you need to avoid?

12:09

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James (2): 12:41

The key thing for me is just avoid, um, showboating. ah, I had a boss for a he would sit in meetings with his staff and his boss and his peers, you know, sort of once every three month review type And, He’d just take over and you’d start to make your point and he would take over he’d make a load of Spurious claims which everybody who worked for him knew were rubbish And just so that he looked good in front of his boss he did nothing for the morale of the people around him

Jimmy (3): 13:21

To that point, You always have to remember your results, your objectives are almost always delivered by your team It’s not always just the work you do. So you piss them off and, the work they do will tail off without a shadow of a doubt.

James (2): 13:41

another thing to avoid is covering up things that will make you look bad. So first of all, you can’t fix a problem unless you admit you’ve got a

Jimmy (3): 13:52

problem. Well, it’s the old thing about, addiction, isn’t it? Until you admit your addiction, you can never get better. Yeah, absolutely. But that’s, one of the big things. You see a lot of people not admitting they’ve got a problem. And, there’s nothing for the organization Well, do you remember we inherited a team of analysts from somebody who remained nameless and They were not there to find opportunities They were there to spin stories to say, yeah, to make them look good.

James (2): 14:21

The whole sort of endless spinning of stuff

Jimmy (3): 14:23

People see through it. I don’t think it’s I think the trouble with some of these things that we’re talking about avoiding is, in the short term, they may work. They may work in that meeting. They may work in that month. They are not long term, sustainable ways of getting things done and driving results.

James (2): 14:43

So what about Project Du Jour then? What do you feel about that

Jimmy (3): 14:46

bet you, if you go around organisations now, like moths to a flame, people will be heading towards AI projects, Sustainability. Anything that is, viewed in a certain way, you just want to be involved with them because they get you in the, in the spotlight. Versus, are you involved in those projects because they really mean something to you, you’re passionate about them, and you have the skills and capability to make them successful.

James (2): 15:20

and then the other thing is people who grab glory from others. Yeah, so don’t give credit where credit is due is really something You will get much more respects from the people who work for you and the people that you are working for If you bask in their glory and demonstrate what your team has been doing

Jimmy (3): 15:38

So there’s some of the things that you need to avoid. But let’s look at some of the ways that you can do this, do it well and get successful outcomes as a result.

James (2): 15:50

Just offer help, right? So if you’ve got something that you can do, that your team can do, and that would help somebody else. And when I say help, be genuinely helpful. a conversation which says, look, we could do this. Would this be of any use to you? So it’s a great thing.

Jimmy (3): 16:05

Also the other thing is sharing experience and capabilities so that people know what’s available. Because I found, particularly in big organisations, people just don’t understand the capabilities that sit in your teams or in you. And so they don’t actually know. To come to you to get help. I think the flip side of of offering help I is equally as powerful is ask for help.

James (2): 16:33

Well, as long as it’s genuine, but absolutely right. Because people love to give advice. And if you honestly have, I mean, it’s one thing going to the chief executive and asking him to be a mentor, you know, for God’s sake, pass me the sick book here. But if you’ve got a thorny little problem and somebody can help you remove a roadblock or give you some advice, Take them aside and just ask for a little bit of help because people love to give it. I

Jimmy (3): 16:56

It’s in, broadly it’s in human nature. We want, we want to help, we want to help each other. That also helps you overcome some of the awkwardness of managing upwards, is because actually you realise that there’s something in it for them, in terms of they’ll feel good doing it. being able to help you. And actually, in that example, there’s one of the people that we used to work with who was far more senior than us and far more experienced who I always used to ask for some help and advice and, his advice was always good because, and it really helped us get the job done and it helped us in our jobs, didn’t it? But ultimately, he then pointed me in the right direction for finding one of the best jobs I had in my career which If I hadn’t have been working with him and asking him for help and had, and had that relationship, I’d never have got that opportunity.

James (2): 17:45

Yeah, there’s a bit of making your own look,

Jimmy (3): 17:47

your own luck, isn’t there? Ultimately, another way of getting things done is when you’ve got those, big decisions to be made that are made by committees or boards or whoever large groups of people going and engaging with people individually and informally can be a great way of getting things done because people also want to feel that they’ve been involved and listened to on a subject. So you can make them feel good about it, but you can also understand where they’re coming from, where their concerns are.

James (2): 18:21

divide and conquer, so that you just knock them off individually, understand what their positions are, rather than one big presentation where you don’t know where their agendas are and you just get shot at.

Jimmy (3): 18:30

Yeah, and quite often I find that when subjects are a bit controversial and they know there’s going to be some opposing views, they, people will keep their head down. They won’t manage their stakeholders in that way because they don’t want to hear the bad news. Wait till you’re in the big formal set piece. Get the bad news then. How’s that work out for you? So engaging with the audience, it helps you get stuff done. It builds your credibility and relationships with senior people. So that’s another good way of looking at it. You just got to remember you should be spending more time delivering than you do Just telling

James (2): 19:06

I used to work for a bloke. Do you know him? I don’t know if you remember him. His nickname was Rob the Knob. Because he was just priceless at getting out there and telling stories. And everybody around him thought he was just complete.

Jimmy (3): 19:17

So now every Rob that you’ve ever worked with is wondering if they are, am I Rob The

James (2): 19:21

Was he for me?

Jimmy (3): 19:22

name. But in fairness, if your name’s Rob. Yeah, probably. You’re probably gonna get that called that anyhow, aren’t

James (2): 19:27

Yeah. I’ve worked with Jimmy.

Jimmy (3): 19:28

Skinny, but then maybe not, maybe not, maybe not. Anyhow, so there’s some, some basis that you can do it on around giving help, asking for help, engaging people. But you’ve also got to just think about who the audience is and when you’re doing it. So back to your point, rushing around doing it just before cross count is only ever going to look superficial. And doing it to people that aren’t there. There is no value for them, will always look superficial. I think That’s key, is being authentic. really being aligned on, what are the messages you’re giving upwards, what are the messages you’re giving downwards. Thinking about the audience, thinking about how they’re going to receive it. Think about the impact it has on others. They’re all things that go towards being authentic.

James (2): 20:17

Right, and then another thing, just because you’ve got me on, is this whole thing about EQ, my personal strength, but just think a wee bit about the implication it’s going to have Yeah, have I told you my Mitch mail story? you remember that?

Jimmy (3): 20:32

I remember it well, but I do think it is one of my favourite work stories. I think you should share it with our

James (2): 20:39

So we worked for a bloke, well, worked for a bloke who worked for, anyway, the big boss was called Mitch. And, Mitch, uh, needed some information So he sent a note to my boss. My boss was called Bob at the time, And then Bob then forwarded this, note onto me and I looked at this note and went out. Mitch wanted some but he was obviously in a rush and I don’t know, maybe one of his thumbs had

Jimmy (3): 21:04

had dropped off. Maybe his thumbs had

James (2): 21:08

But I’ve never seen such a, misspelt tirade in my life. Anyway, I obviously didn’t have the information, you know, just another go between lackey, so I passed it on to a lovely lady who worked for me called Maxine and I said, uh, Maxine, I’d be really grateful if you could get this for me. Mitch is obviously so apoplectic he’s lost the ability to spell. That was my email, which I then sent off to Maxine. And Maxine did a super job. She, got the information, put it into a nice little PowerPoint, attached it to the original mail, and sent it back to

Jimmy (3): 21:39

to

James (2): 21:42

So I came back to my desk and, there’s this mail from Mitch which said, uh, I’d like to thank Maxine for the information and I’d also like to thank James Lord for pointing out to the entire organisation that I can’t spell. I was just mortified, just horrified. I ran round to Mitch’s office to apologise and he just creased up laughing at me at his desk. But it was just, oh, what a horror film. So, a little bit of EQ. Think about it. If you’re going to say this about somebody, would you like them to hear

Jimmy (3): 22:12

So really, when we’re talking about managing upwards, we shouldn’t be listening to your advice,

James (2): 22:17

probably

Jimmy (3): 22:17

be careful everyone be careful when forwarding on emails. I can still remember the huddle of people that were around your desk when that mail had landed and you hadn’t seen it yet. They were waiting for you to come back to a meeting so they could see your reaction to

James (2): 22:34

addressed to everybody in the entire frigging organisation. Stuff

Jimmy (3): 22:37

of dreams. But I think another really big important part of how you do it is getting your mindset right about doing

James (2): 22:49

Oh, absolutely. It’s all about mindset and framing. It’s about am I doing this to either improve our work, get my team opportunities to do more work, get the job done. If it’s doing that, then I’m golden. I can go in with the best of them. Yeah, it’s when it is, oh, look at me, me, me.

Jimmy (3): 23:10

Amy. And, and I think that, I think you’re right, but my mindset around the stuff that you would say was me, me, me is slightly

James (2): 23:21

Yeah, go

Jimmy (3): 23:21

So I would think about it as I mentioned earlier, not just about how you’re showing off, but how are you sharing information, knowledge, experiences, how you’re building relationships in order to get stuff done. And all of those things help you take control over your career when there are opportunities, when you do need advice. I think you’ve got to get your mindset straight in a way that helps you do this authentically and effectively to get the outcomes you want.

James (2): 23:55

there’s a philosophical debate here, isn’t there, right? we have worked for people who have risen to great heights in organisations, been phenomenally well paid, and they only last, what, two and a half, three years?

Jimmy (3): 24:07

Yeah, but they’ve been in all sorts of senior roles, and they are probably a downside more wealthy than either of us are. So on one level, you could look at it and say, haven’t they been successful? But they would have ticked a lot of the boxes for the things that we have said don’t do, right? So they have obviously got a mindset that tells them that is successful for them. But personally, I guess, I want to be successful on the basis of the positive impact I’m having and I want to be able to sleep at night. I don’t want to have to spin stories about what great job I’m doing.

James (2): 24:47

Have you heard the story about the monkeys in the tree?

Jimmy: 24:49

No, go on.

James: 24:50

a lot of organizations, like monkeys in a tree, If you’re at the top of the tree and you look down, all you see is a bunch of happy smiling faces. But if you’re at the bottom of the tree and you’re looking up, all you see is assholes. Yeah, there you go, there’s deep, there’s profound for you.

Jimmy (3): 25:07

In summary, where’s this take us? I guess We can see that there is a lot of value in effectively and authentically managing upwards to make your work life better and get the job done.

James (2): 25:22

But it is treading a fine line.

Jimmy (3): 25:24

are, you are on thin ice with some of this stuff.

James (2): 25:26

there are, a lot of positive ways of doing it.

Jimmy (3): 25:30

A lot of the same principles around how to do it and how not to do it. They also apply to networking in

James (2): 25:38

Yeah, because people don’t like

Jimmy (3): 25:40

No, Hopefully you can see the, the value in actually managing upwards. It isn’t just for brown noses. You’ll want to do this and it will make you more confident and effective, which will in turn, help improve your performance and enjoyment of work, which is what we’re here for.

James (2): 25:58

but I just want to leave you one, one final thought, don’t be Rob the Knob Anyway, we’ve mastered the dark arts of managing upwards, and then we’ll speak to you next week.

Jimmy (3): 26:09

And remember, if you’ve got any questions or comments about managing upwards, you want to know how to do more of it, get in touch.

James (2): 26:16

Yeah, talk to Jimmy. Speak to you later.

Jimmy (3): 26:19

Thanks everyone.